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Thread: Senior Free Dance at 3:00pm EST.

  1. #81
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    To be honest I thought the Shibutanis were quite overscored even with National scoring inflation and too close to Davis & White. I think the USFSA is trying to push them to repeat their World medal from last year, but I dont think international judges will be swayed by their scores here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CassAgain View Post
    Madison and Zach were wonderful, too. I would have given 3rd to Lynn and Logan, though.
    I got to actually watch the championship finals dance in person at HP Pavilion (first time I'd ever been to a Nationals competition ever so it was a bit exciting). I loved Lynn and Logan too (I'd never seen them before). I thought they should have gotten 3rd too. They were all great. And seeing Davis and White and the Shibs live is a memory I'll never forget, sorry if I sound cheesy but I had fun yesterday.

    So they didn't show the short program of the ice dance on NBC? I don't have cable anymore so I miss these things and thought of sigining up for Ice Network. I hate how short shrift is given to ice skating these days on regular TV.
    Last edited by reneerose; 01-29-2012 at 10:28 PM.

  3. #83
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    I was there seeing the free dance. I don't normally watch dance, but I thought I should check it out since we have 2 world medalists in the group.

    Some notes
    Lynn & Logan. I feel for them. I thought they were good. They skated before Hubbell and Donahue. After they were done, I thought, finally, they are going to worlds.
    Then H/D took the ice and were captivating throughout. Thought it would be very close. But H/D had a lead from the SP, so I guess they deserved their 3rd place.
    The shibs were really fun. They were a league above 3rd and 4th place. Whoever said the Shibs skate like juniors must watch them back to back with seniors because no juniors skate like that. I was looking for evidence that the Shibs generate speed from no where, fast, and cover a lot of ice, but they were lacking in all front there.
    D/W were great. Finished right on the music. I thought they were slow and they should be the fastest ones out there. Maybe ice dancing is slow. Their twizzle covered about 40% of the rink, which is the longest of all pairs competing.

  4. #84
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    Thanks for the reports from the arena, FlattFan and reneerose.

    Yes, distance covered is one of the GOE points with twizzles, and is one reason D&W's score high.

    As to slow-D&W are usually blazing fast; from TV I got the impression that they were working on performance issues more than speed this time out.

  5. #85
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    Yeah it was a dumb question!

  6. #86
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    I'm not on Icenetwork. I read the newspapers for skating news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Thanks for the reports from the arena, FlattFan and reneerose.

    Yes, distance covered is one of the GOE points with twizzles, and is one reason D&W's score high.

    As to slow-D&W are usually blazing fast; from TV I got the impression that they were working on performance issues more than speed this time out.
    Thanks, Doris. And thanks to reneerose and FlattFan for eyewitness reports. Through this season I've been so delighted with the "Die Fledermaus" program, and if D/W are working on it to improve it, that's even better. I'm almost hoping they revive this program for 2014, because it's so spectacular and evocative. I have a friend who's a middling-to-interested skate fan, and I e-mailed her the link to this program (the GP final version) because I thought that anyone who even knows what a skate looks like would be enchanted by it.

    However Worlds turns out, we fans are going to get to see something amazing.

  8. #88
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    However, dancers are usually doing what would be level 4 step sequences for singles skaters. So the correct way, I would think, to compare the speed of singles skaters to dancers would be to compare the speed doing step sequences.

  9. #89
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    Single and pair skaters gain speed by doing a dozen back crossovers (easy). It's the jumps that are hard. Dancers don't do back crossovers, they gain speed by pushing off the edge of the blade (hard). The deeper the edges, the faster they can go as there is less friction from the blade to the ice. If Davis & White covered 40% of the ice doing quick turns (twizzles) on one foot in a matter of a few seconds, I'd say that was fast. Don't know of any singles or pair teams in the world that can do that.

  10. #90
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I don't know of any either

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    Single and pair skaters gain speed by doing a dozen back crossovers (easy). It's the jumps that are hard. Dancers don't do back crossovers, they gain speed by pushing off the edge of the blade (hard). The deeper the edges, the faster they can go as there is less friction from the blade to the ice. If Davis & White covered 40% of the ice doing quick turns (twizzles) on one foot in a matter of a few seconds, I'd say that was fast. Don't know of any singles or pair teams in the world that can do that.
    D/W are the fastest of all of the dancers I saw. I was comparing apples to oranges when I compared them to singles and pairs .

    Comparing steps, let's take Davis' step sequence in the LP (remove White from the picture), she was slower across the ice than Vanessa in the short program, about the same speed as Rachael in the LP. Would be less intricate, less turns, less speed than Jason Brown in the LP. Maybe skating in pair impede the speed a little bit compare to single skater.
    I could only think of two or three examples of single skaters whose steps are better than Davis and White if they skate individually mainly because they are slower across the ice. Prior to seeing them, I thought their steps would be out of this world, blow all other skaters out of the water, but after, I thought it was just great. Too high expectation from me.

  12. #92
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Sometimes you have to know the rules

    Here's what Singles Skaters have to do for a level 4 step-execute 4 of these features from the following list.

    1) Simple variety (Level 2), variety (Level 3), complexity (Level 4) of turns and steps
    throughout (compulsory)
    2) Rotations (turns, steps) in either direction (left and right) with full body rotation
    covering at least 1/3 of the pattern in total for each rotational direction
    3) Use of upper body movements for at least ½ of the pattern
    4) At least half a pattern on one foot only
    5) Two different combinations of 3 difficult turns (rockers, counters, brackets, twizzles,
    loops) quickly executed within the sequence
    Dancers have to show 5 different types of turns to get that Level 4 and every single step by both dancers has to be clean and well defined-no rolling from a flat to the back outside, for example.

    Footwork includes at least 5 different Types of Difficult Turns (one of which being a Double Twizzle)
    AND
    Turns are multidirectional
    AND
    A one foot section includes the 4 different Types of One Foot Section Turns
    AND
    Difficult Turns, Twizzles and, if any, the first performed 2 Extra Features cover at least 75% of the chosen pattern
    AND
    100% of Difficult Turns are performed clearly on correct Edges and all other Steps/Turns are clean
    AND
    At least 3 Changes of Hold are included
    AND
    At least 3 different Dance Holds are included
    IMO, the demands on the dancers are A LOT HARDER.

    For example, for only 2 types of turns, they get

    Level 1
    At least 50% of the Step Sequence is completed
    AND
    Footwork includes at least 2 different Types of Difficult Turns (one of which being a twizzle)
    And of course, the dancers have to match each other in line and conformance to the beat of the music.

    And no toe pushing, either.

  13. #93
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    ^^ I see. After you explained it, D&W appeared to do harder footwork. I just wish the rules relax the constraint a bit to make the footwork flow better, faster. I wouldn't mind some toepushing.
    For viewing pleasure, I prefer some singles' steps more than theirs.
    For technical aspect, they are superior to singles' steps.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    ....And thanks to reneerose and FlattFan for eyewitness reports. Through this season I've been so delighted with the "Die Fledermaus" program, and if D/W are working on it to improve it, that's even better.....
    I'm not too knowledgeable still about skating technically, but their dance was for sure very complex and smooth. Just how well-conditioned and strong they are is admirable. I think it's one of D&W's best programs.

    And I had not seen the Shibs short program, but later when I saw a video of it I thought it was great and that it seemed more energetic than the free dance. The Shibs' free dance didn't seem as energetic as their short program, at least for me personally. Maybe because I'd already seen it too many times on You Tube. And so cute Alex was with his 'whew' at the end of it.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by reneerose View Post
    I'm not too knowledgeable still about skating technically, but their dance was for sure very complex and smooth. Just how well-conditioned and strong they are is admirable. I think it's one of D&W's best programs.

    And I had not seen the Shibs short program, but later when I saw a video of it I thought it was great and that it seemed more energetic than the free dance. The Shibs' free dance didn't seem as energetic as their short program, at least for me personally. Maybe because I'd already seen it too many times on You Tube. And so cute Alex was with his 'whew' at the end of it.
    I wouldn't be surprised if they put all their effort in the SD. It pretty much a new program (they dumped and re-did about 2/3 of it) and given their struggles with Latin, they probably put 110 percent into selling it.

    The FD was a bit of an autopilot, I agree, but I still could see some improvements there as well.

  16. #96
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    When judges will stop overscore D-W? I understand, they are only 1 hope for any kind of medals at WChs and OG, but this is something, wich kill ice dancing.
    Shibs skate V-M SD - so what is going on?
    If D-W will skate untill Sochi judges will give them gold even if they only made 2 steps on ice.
    But look they are most lucky ice dancers ever - all had injuries, illness, some individual problems, judges dont like some skaters programs, but nothing from this happening with D-W. Worst ice dancer ever, who kill ice dance now had 10th - amazing!
    Dont want pay money to see ice dance competitions anymore

  17. #97
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    npa, other than that the Shibs and V&M seem to be using the same footwork sequence, which is no surprise since many of the S&Z footwork sequences are completely interchangeable, both teams have been doing 3 twizzle sets for 2 years now, and of course, all teams do two identical rhumba sequences, what makes you think it is the same program?

    The only other element is the lift and the Shibs have been doing a simple rotational lift at the end all season, not just now. Tessa & Scott's rotational lift at the end of the program was just added, and it isn't the same lift as the Shibs (it's a harder one).

    So other than that they are now doing their elements in the same order, what do you find identical?



    Shibs old SD (GPF)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSjeup2A6Ns

    Shibs new SD (US Nationals)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfv_ACXZ3JA

    V&M old SD (GPF)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQCLGJoE8Ak

    V&M new SD (Canadian Nationals)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NC3gqKoenA

    I suspect ice dance will survive both V&M and D&W-I expect both to retire post Sochi. That's only 2 years.


    Why will it survive? Because if ice dance survived the horror that was the early Grishuk & Platov years (1994 to 1996), it will survive this. (1994 to 1996 was another time the ISU got tired of people dying on ice, and wanted ballroom dancy programs) Too many kids enjoy doing ice dance, and too many people enjoy watching them for it to die, no matter who disagrees with which result.

  18. #98
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    del
    Last edited by npa; 02-01-2012 at 04:54 PM.

  19. #99
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    My quick thoughts:

    I really loved Davis & White, the Shibutanis and Samuelson & Gilles
    I loved the changes in Emily and Todd's programs(I wonder what their deduction was for?). Sad they didnt get tv coverage. I hope they get a Grand Prix(or 2) next year.
    I didnt feel Chock & Bates at all.
    Im sad that Lynn & Logan missed a trip to worlds, they were so close. Maybe next year.
    I prefer Hubbell and Donohue over the Hubbells. Less of a creepy feeling. I dont have that feeling with the Shibutanis or the Kerrs though. I thought Madson & Zachary did great

  20. #100
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    I just realized I didn't get to see Samuelson and Gilles' programs at all.

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