Caroline Zhang - Can She Regain Her Spot Among The Top US Ladies? | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Caroline Zhang - Can She Regain Her Spot Among The Top US Ladies?

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
The U.S Nationals judges are responsible for the U.S not gaining 3 spots those years. They always sent one bad apple at the time that was never going to pan out for them.

.

I wouldn't be surprised the U.S. Nationals judges made the same mistake again this year! I'm not a Zhang fan but she should be sent to the worlds instead of Alissa or some no-name Zakawi(?). It's a travesty they again sent out a unreliable Alissa who could barely rotate her jumps and kept on popping and falling. I wouldn't be surprised if Alissa would bomb again at the worlds.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Thing about Czisny is that even if she's mediocre, she has enough to fall back on to stay in the top 10. Now, in the case of a meltdown that is a different story. At her best she can challenge for a medal- even the title- but that's one thing we've never seen from her.

I can understand Zhang not being on the immediate world team because she came out of nowhere and I actually still think Czisny (even with a mistake or two) will score higher than her on the world stage. I think after 4CCs though they should move her up to 1st alternate. I think the list has been determined/submitted already though. The way it is now, Zawadzki :eek: is our 1st alternate...

If the current ladies can just get back that 3rd spot, I think Zhang's chances of going to worlds next year look quite good.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, it has already been announced, right? Wagner and Czisny, with Zawadski as the first alternate.

Ashley is red hot at the moments, but her streak has only two good competitions in a row. Alissa dropped the ball in her last couple of competitions, but last year won the Grand Prix Final and got fifth at Worlds.

Lacking a consistent and dominant star, all we can do is hope for the best.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ She won her spot in the short program. Clean with big jumps. She had such a nice cushion that she still got third even after a sub-par long program.

To me, the result is more a by-product of the scoring system than an indication of favoritism.

The USFSA does seem to have high hopes for Agnez in the future, though. Both Zawardski and Wagner have to win on the tech side. Caroline Zhang as a junior was utterly exquisite on the artistic side, and her flaws in technique did not seem very important. If she can fully regain that charm as a mature senior she could be the one.
 

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
To me, the result is more a by-product of the scoring system than an indication of favoritism.

Caroline scored all PCS in the 7's except for Transitions in the FS at National's (total: 56.55), which is by far the highest PCS she has ever been awarded. At 4CC, she only earned a 7.07 in P/E, total: 54.19. So I think for once, the U.S. judges were not holding her down. What really hurt her at National's was getting a level 2 and level 3 spin in the SP, and a level 1 and level 3 spin plus a level 2 footwork sequence in the FS -- at 4CC, she earned level 4 for all her spins and level 3 for both footwork sequences. Had she gotten those levels at National's, she would've definitely bypassed Agnes for the bronze; and she might have even passed Alissa in the SP for 3rd place going into the FS, making herself looking more like a serious threat.

But Zawadski was definitely held up at National's a bit in her PCS:
SP: 30.59 (National's), 26.80 (4CC)
FS: 59.60 (National's), 55.09 (4CC)

Maybe National's judges just got a little too excited and thought that "the next big thing" has just manifested itself in Agnes.
 
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pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Thing about Czisny is that even if she's mediocre, she has enough to fall back on to stay in the top 10. Now, in the case of a meltdown that is a different story. At her best she can challenge for a medal- even the title- but that's one thing we've never seen from her.

I can understand Zhang not being on the immediate world team because she came out of nowhere and I actually still think Czisny (even with a mistake or two) will score higher than her on the world stage. I think after 4CCs though they should move her up to 1st alternate. I think the list has been determined/submitted already though. The way it is now, Zawadzki :eek: is our 1st alternate...

If the current ladies can just get back that 3rd spot, I think Zhang's chances of going to worlds next year look quite good.

True. I do think they picked the right 2 women team this year, both all things considered and based on the skating at Nationals. If Czisny bombs this time I doubt there will be any recovery for her.

As we already know ALOT can happen in a years time so who knows what might happen by next years Nationals but if Wagner and Czisny do well and regain 3 spots then Wagner, Czisny, and Gold might be the early frontrunners for the 3 spots next year. If Czisny does poorly and the U.S does not regain 3 spots because of it then Wagner and Gold would seem to be the early favorites for the 2 spots next year. Well maybe Czisny might fare poorly at Worlds and the U.S still regains 3 spots due to a fabulous showing by Wagner, which would seem the best scenario in a way for Zhangs U.S status heading into next season (not that I am hoping anyone does poorly, just my feeling on things). That does not even account the other major contenders like Agnes who showed with her SP at Nationals she could really be something if she gets her head together, and Nagasu who of course can really be something if she gets herself together, and possibly some others. However it pans out Zhang will have a huge fight on her hands to make it onto the World team for the first time, but I definitely wouldnt put it past her after seeing her hard work and improvement over the last year either.
 
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pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
But Zawadski was definitely held up at National's a bit in her PCS:
SP: 30.59 (National's), 26.80 (4CC)
FS: 59.60 (National's), 55.09 (4CC)

Maybe National's judges just got a little too excited and thought that "the next big thing" has just manifested itself in Agnes.

Her SP at Nationals was phenomenal and scored correctly in both TES and PCS IMO. Her LP was definitely overscored in PCS, which is what helped keep Zhang off the podium, along with Agnes killing it in the SP.

I do think the U.S jugdes might have thought for a moment they saw the next big thing, but after her last 3 performances it is clear she still has some major work to do. It worries me she was thinking of quitting earlier this year, it makes me wonder if she has the mental toughness to ever be a champion in the sport.
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
What really hurt her at National's was getting a level 2 and level 3 spin in the SP, and a level 1 and level 3 spin plus a level 2 footwork sequence in the FS -- at 4CC, she earned level 4 for all her spins and level 3 for both footwork sequences.

I wondered about that. How did Caroline make all her spins level 4 in only 2 weeks? :sheesh:
 

Andalusia

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
I wondered about that. How did Caroline make all her spins level 4 in only 2 weeks? :sheesh:

I may be wrong, but I don't think that that's very hard to do? Probably all she needed to do was to hold some positions longer (hence garnering more revolutions), and I noticed that she did seem to be doing this more at 4CCs than she did at Nationals.
 

krenseby

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Caroline Zhang as a junior was utterly exquisite on the artistic side, and her flaws in technique did not seem very important. If she can fully regain that charm as a mature senior she could be the one.

I agree with you that Caroline has to find her way back to her artistic side to make a strong impression. Do you think she can do this with David Wilson or should she perhaps seek out another choreographer? She could go back to Lori Nichol who she worked a lot in previous years. Or perhaps she could have Karen Kwan choreograph for her, though Karen has only choreographed exhibitions for her thus far.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I may be wrong, but I don't think that that's very hard to do? Probably all she needed to do was to hold some positions longer (hence garnering more revolutions), and I noticed that she did seem to be doing this more at 4CCs than she did at Nationals.
It can also be in relation to where her spin starts versus the camera used to count positions for the tech panel. I noticed she changed her flying sit in the SP from a FCSp1 to a FSSp4 (one of the differences was she had an easier flying entry on the camel (basic fly) versus the toe over fly on the sit spin). The spins were called correctly at Nationals as she was just a little bit short on some positions to get complete credit for the levels, no conspiracy. If you go and look, Gold also had a couple spins this year called L3 instead of L4 (both at Nationals and her JGP event) and she shorted positions by ~ 1/2 a rev to get them called as L4. Coaches will tell you, if you think you've done 8, do 9 just to make sure or if you think you've done 2, do 2 more.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the improvement in Caroline’s jumps. She’s sinking down into her knee on the take-off and getting up into the air instead of barely clearing the ice. She’s even getting some ice coverage although her jumps are still small compared to others. Last but certainly not least, she’s getting both her rotations and + GoE on her jumps. It’s mostly +1’s but in the past she received either 0’s or –GoE on her jumps so this is huge. It’s not easy to completely change your jump technique and kudos to her for doing so.

But her PCS scores are still in the 6’s (except for one 7.0 something) so it’s far to early to declare that she’s back or that she’ll be a factor internationally. Two of the top 3 Japanese ladies were missing from this event, and there are a whole slew of European Ladies who can easily outscore her total competition score.

Time to get to work on that stroking.
 

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Two of the top 3 Japanese ladies were missing from this event, and there are a whole slew of European Ladies who can easily outscore her total competition score.

Wait, who else is missing besides Akiko? I'm not sure that I can see Miki Ando coming back to competitive skating again (successfully). And who are the whole slew of European ladies who can easily outscore her? Polina K maybe, but she hasn't yet shown she can skate two clean programs and she still has lowish PCS. Ksenia and Alena are both very inconsistent, as are Kiira and Elene. The only person who has definite advantage in overall scores is Carolina Kostner.

Anyway, I wasn't implying there was a conspiracy about her spin/footwork levels at National's. I counted her spin rotations at National's, and she clearly wasn't holding them long enough except for the layback; at 4CC she held each position just long enough. Peter O in an IN interview said that in the past Caroline had used the spins to "rest", but now she realized that she has to attack them too. And Caroline herself said after her 4CC SP that after her step-out on the 3R-3R, she was still really focused on the rest of the program, including getting all the levels up, and she "knew that there were lots of other things to earn points on." So I think after National's, they focused a lot on the spin and step sequence levels.

It's too bad that they didn't do this before National's, or she would have won bronze even with Agnes' PCS inflation in the FS. But I'm sure they were working hard on getting all the jumps solid, especially that 3R-3R. I'm amazed that her 3Z has become consistent again. Earlier in the year, she was only hitting about 60% of them in practice and competitions. Plus her 3Z has not been called 'e' for the last two competitions. Maybe it's the callers' being generous, but if they are going to continue being lenient... Same with 2A, it's obviously bigger and covering more distance. She was still spinning it out in Skate America.

Anyway, it would be great if she could be first alternate to Worlds, but I think this is already a much better ending to her season than she and her team had expected, and I'm sure it gave her a lot of extra motivation/confidence to keep working hard into next season. It must be rewarding to see your hard work finally paying off. And anyway, I cannot really see either Ashley or Alissa pulling out of Worlds, nor USFSA dropping Alissa for anyone given she was the best-performing US lady on the GP's and her stellar season last year. For Caroline, not going to Worlds means she'll have more time to work on the basic technical things and getting programs together for next season.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
caroline can get back, i think she will improve more for next season, and work on what she needs
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
There were complaints about Caroline getting the SA GP spot but I figured the usfsa probably knew or saw something most people didn't and still believed in her potential and wanted to keep giving her competition experience and credits. Often some patience extended to real talents can be very worthwhile.

I remember defending Nam Nguyen when he didn't do well at his first JGP event early this season as I could not believe how quick and harsh some people were to charge that he did not deserve the spots, which he earned as Canada's Junior Champion. The kid had been phenomenal and a little patience for his first international outing during a growth spurt was not too much to ask. I felt just as badly as Caroline went through the tough two years with lots of disparaging words against her but it's also heartening to know she still has so many fans who support and believe in her.

She has shown resolve, determination, and results fighting through so many obstacles, physical, mental, and extrinsic. Kudos and I wish her continued success. It's always sweet to prove detractors wrong.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Anyway, this season is really a stepping stone for her. It may be tough to fight your way back to the top but it's nothing compared to trying to stay up there. She may have come a long way but IMO she still has a long way to go.

In other words, next season will really tell the tale as to where she is truly headed.
 
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