All Things Ice Dance: Canadian | Page 5 | Golden Skate

All Things Ice Dance: Canadian

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
With Worlds in London next year, I bet that you will be getting some fairly good coverage, especially since Canadian skaters have had such success in Nice this year.
 

slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I went back and watched O/W's programs before responding to this O/W wuz robbed stuff and I'm afraid I don't share this opinion at all. They looked very junior to me. They were very light in their transitions, and their edges are not deep. Mostly they stand upright and lack the deep knees to contend with any of the teams who finished above them. Nicole does not lock her knees and as a result, their lines suffer. Last, but not least, there is a great deal of distance between the two of them. I could not help but note that they scored 10 points lower at Jr. Worlds than they did at Canadians and that their two lowest PCS scores were for transitions and skating skills.

Then I watched G&P and I saw speed, deep edges, strong matching lines. I noted that Piper has very strong lines and good positions. As for Tracey Wilson, she noted how close they skated together. They used all levels, while O/W are only using one level. Everything G&P did was more difficult and performed better than O/W.

O/W are a true junior team with a ways to before they can compete with senior teams. I have no problem with their placement, and they will get full junior team funding.

Orford and Williams teamed up in the spring of 2010, and won Junior Nationals that year. They competed as junior this year as Thomas was not yet 21. However, for Canadian Nationals they had to compete at the senior level because they were Junior Champions.

They seem to be very hard workers, judging by the improvements they have made in less than two years, and I for one am not ready to write them off.
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:)... In the interest of not being misunderstood , I just want to point out that I haven't said that O/W should have beaten G/P ... And when I posed the question - should G/P have placed below O/W in the SD ? and answered myself, I don't know... I meant, " I don't know if I would go that far ", but I do think the differential between them was far too great. I guess that's just another way of saying the differential between G/P and W/P was far, far too small.

Setting aside national vs,international vs.Jr vs Sr scores in all their variations, I think O/W did very well at Jr. World's. The Russian teams were expected to dominate , and there were other very promising teams as well. I'm not saying " wuzrobbed " about their placement at Canadians either. I'm saying everyone except the last flight wuzrobbed by the artificial schedule of the competition. It's particularly noticeable with them , because their scores were deservedly closer to the teams above them than to the teams below...by quite a bit, IIRC

With G/P, they were marked closer to W/P and V/M than they deserved by a long shot..This promotes a false equivalence and already we see probably otherwise rational people ( sorry to use your question as an example ,Isabella) saying, Will R/H be able to pull up closer to W/P and G/P ..when those two teams and the product they put out this year, shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath.(At this stage of the game ). If G/P's marks had been more reasonable , it would be ..can they catch G/P.. and then worry about the next rung in the ladder. The more it's repeated the more people will think of those teams as on a par.

gotta go mash potatoes..I'll be back;)
 
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NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Gilles and Poirier you know will come very prepared next year they think they already have the goods for world and olympic medals i heard Piper say that, weaver and Poje better be on the lookout.

To me, this comment is evidence of unrealistic hype that is not going to help them at all. W/P are hard worker who "wuz robbed" on a number of occasions, but just worked harder and harder. The evidence is in the international results. This happened over time. G/P have a LOT of work to do to match the lines and edges of W/P. These things take time and a ton of hard work. Tricks won't cut it. I saw some pictures online of V/M compared to G/P in the same SD step. Sorry, but G/P were light years away in quality of lines (they had none), unison, etc. Speed isn't the answer. They need to start from scratch, and build up. It's going to take a few years before they have the goods to contend. There are no short-cuts to the top, despite all the hype, politicking, etc.
 

slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Such self-confidence is a wonderful thing if it helps you to keep working until you reach your goal. However it seems to me that I heard once of a team who thought they were challenging for silver and ended up ninth. The reality of the situation seemed to them like a crushing defeat.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I don't have any expectations that G&P will beat W&P next season, but I think that I don't think that top 10 at Worlds is doable, if the results for Hubbel & O'Donoghue are any indication. They've already got their new SD and are doing full run-throughs.

And while I do think they were over-scored at Canadians (wasn't everyone?), I don't think that the placements were wrong.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
The trouble is that G/P's national bump was far,far greater than anyone else's... I'm sure no one likes national bumps , but they seem to be a fact of life , and we sort of know ( roughly ) what to expect. I think someone pointed out earlier ( was it 'Pogue ? ) That on average 3-4 points would seem to be the norm. V/M didn't get much of one ( if any ) but of course their marks are so high it's not so doable. W/P got no more than the average , compared with what they had been scoring throughout the season and of course, more would have pushed them controversially close to V/M , and the closer you get to the top the narrower the margins between those couples will become, because there is an upper limit ..But considering W/P received just barely under the 100 mark for their FD at 4CC and just barely over 100 at Worlds..their bump turns out to have been almost no bump at all.

Then there's the problem of our lyin' eyes.. I don't think any objective observer could justify G/P coming to under 6 points of W/P in the FD and over 10 points ( that's a big gap !) ahead of the tight group of 3 below them. No rationalization is possible...I don't think anyone can make a plausible case that there was no push for that team.

Did they have entertaining programs ? Yes , absolutely.(the FD more than the SD, IMO)..but that doesn't mean that the content was that close to V/M's or W/P's , or that the programs were skated with anywhere near the level of skill and finesse , that is implied by their scores.
 
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slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
.


O/W are a true junior team with a ways to before they can compete with senior teams. I have no problem with their placement, and they will get full junior team funding.

Do you know this for sure? I have been looking for a definitive answer. Thomas will be 21 this month, so I thought that would make him too old for ISU events, and, of course I thought that the Canadian Junior champions they had to move up. I was afraid they might have ended up in limbo.
 
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Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Do you know this for sure? I have been looking for a definitive answer. Thomas will be 21 this month, so I thought that would make him too old for ISU events, and, of course I thought that the Canadian Junior champions they had to move up. I was afraid they might have ended up in limbo.

The male partner can be 21 but not 22 so the 2012/13 season will be their last season of Junior eligibility. As Canadian Junior Champions they had to move up at nationally, but not internationally.
 

blue eyed birds

Spectator
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
The male partner can be 21 but not 22 so the 2012/13 season will be their last season of Junior eligibility. As Canadian Junior Champions they had to move up at nationally, but not internationally.

So Nicole will still be junior-eligible even turning 20 in October?
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Yes it is, and they're probably not an easy mark. They also got together this spring and there is no reason to imagine they won't improve.

First you suggest that G&P would get nowhere internationally, and when I point out that a team with a similar background finished 10th at Worlds this season, you tell me that G&P won't be beating them because they'll get better, well so will G&P. And G&P will benefit from being the #1 team at their rink whereas H&D will be #3 at their rink. Poirier is certainly a better skater than Donohue. Piper is on a par with Madison, so my thinking isn't unreasonable.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Rules for junior eligibility:

"in International Junior Competitions and ISU Junior Championships a
Junior is a Skater who has met the following requirements before July
1st preceding these Events
:
i) has reached at least the age of thirteen (13);
ii) has not reached the age of nineteen (19) for Ladies and Men in
singles competition; and
iii) has not reached the age of nineteen (19) for Ladies and the age
of twenty-one (21) for Men in Pair Skating and Ice Dance
competition
."

Nicole Orford turned 19 last October, and Thomas Williams turns 21 this month.
As they will be 19 and 21 on July 1st 2012, they will be ineligible for international junior competition.

They are #28 on the ISU World Ranking list, but #21 on the Seasons Best list, so they are eligible for at least one GP invitation.
 
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slipslidin

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Thank you chuckm. I was beginning to think I had slipped into some twilight zone, where everything I said seemed to be misunderstood, and I couldn't understand what I read. I still would like to know if the first six teams will be funded again this year.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
No, she has to be no older than 18. I thought she was younger. Do they qualify for a GP spot based on their ranking or the season high score list?

Skate Canada is funding top 6 last I heard. Unless they changed that again.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Re : funding... I'm really curious to know for sure.. I know it was always top 5 ( for eons) ...but an exception was made for the year just passed to compensate for V/M's absence at nationals the year before. It would have been unfair to snatch back the #5 team's earned funding when V/M stepped back in. But will that increase hold for the upcoming season ? AFAIK , the other discplines' funding stayed at top 5 ( am I right ?) So, the extension would be unfair , now that we've returned to normal circumstances , unless it was extended across all categories. ( Pretty expensive.)
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Good retort ImaginaryPogue! This is a good question that I wish Dragonlady responded to because Dragonlady's inconsistent arguments (reputation does not matter but it matters that G/P are the #1 in their club) do tie in with other posters' suggestion that R/H should change coaches. There is the perception that they are put at a disadvantage training with G/P because with G/P being the #1 team, G/P would get most of the attention.

R/H were the Nationals champions three years in a row. They have had international assignments as Juniors and Seniors. If, indeed, Carol Lane plays favourites, how could R/H do relatively well, then? It does not come across as logical to me that R/H leave Carol Lane either for Wing and Lowe or Dubreuil and Lauzon, considering that these coaches have not been as successful as Carol Lane.

If R/H go train under Wing and Lowe, they will be training with O/W; under Dubreuil and Lauzon, with the Spanish team. Is it not better to pit themselves against G/P instead? A similar scenario seems to work well among V/M, D/W, the Shibutanis, Chock and Bates, and also among P/B, W/P, H/D.

That's a good point. I think it has certainly benefitted V/M and D/W to train together. The lower level teams like Shibs and C/B are benefitting from a halo effect, and the fact that the Z/S camp isn't busting out with tons of teams. P/B and W/P similarly are helping each other out by training together, and H/D are getting the halo effect, although there are a ton of teams in the K/C rink. But I'm pretty sure that all of these teams would also be successful if they didn't skate together. I think it's the coaching that is making the difference. Many teams or one team, they would be successful. It's about degrees at this point, which matters when one is fighting for a medal, but I'm not sure this is the same with R/H who are just trying to establish themselves internationally.

My concern is that for R/H to make some real improvements, they need to fix some basics, like their posture issues, and get some new material. These issues are consistent across all the Scarborough teams. Only Bent/McKeen seem to have mostly escaped it, although not completely. D/L have done a wonderful job in fixing other posture issues. Hasegawa's come to mind. D/L have beautiful technique and posture. I also think they would provide some new and intesting material for programs for R/H. It's a different perspective. And right now they could be the top team in the club, which would be a good position for them. I don't think W/L would be a good idea, since they are not as strong technicians in my opinion. I also don't think there would be a big enough change in program material.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I may be mistaken, but I think Dragonlady's thought is that being number one at your club is disireable because you stand to get the most cretaive attention from your coaches. But this is not the same as being granted undeserved reputation points from international judges, and it does not even guarantee a "political" advantage.
 
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