Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan? | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I would like to see Zayak rule relaxed for a second jump (triple or higher). Maybe more than 2 kinds of triples or quads can be repeated if included as a second jump. E.g. It'll be so cool to see 3A as a second jump such as Hanyu's 3A+3A, without him sacrificing points.

It's been brought up frequently enough that combos are not adequately recognized and rewarded. I feel the current GOE awarded really shortchange jump combos. Essentially the GOE values are assigned according to the first jump without any additional consideration for the subsequent jump(s) which can however actually decrease the GOE rewarded if not executed as well as the first jump. A skater can easily receive less marks for doing more.

Hurrah, anybody can use that "loophole" if they want or could. It wasn't created for Chan, and somebody else, probably Hanyu, could be even more creative to make even better use of it. I don't see what the problem is. Rather, I'm very surprised no one else took advantage of the new rule last season and then this season Rippon seems to be the only other skater doing the new combo.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I am not criticizing Patrick for taking advantage of the loophole. I am criticizing the fact that the loophole exists.
 

fscric

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
And also, there was some discussion earlier that Patrick's quads and half loop layout freed up a pass for him to include a double-axel, and I think that's a case of taking advantage of a loophole in the system and it shouldn't actually be allowed.

Aren't all skaters subject to the same set of rules? This is so absurd I don't even know what to say. Would you say that if Takahashi was taking advantage of this?!

The more I read the posts by some people in this thread, the more I feel sorry for Takahashi to have this kind of fans. In case you people don't know or refuse to see, Takahashi and Patrick are indeed on friendly terms, take a look at the 4CC Q&A clip, it was Patrick that Takahashi turned to for help for the correct English term instead of the other skaters. If he's of the same mindset of some of his uber fans, he wouldn't have turned to Patrick but to Adam Rippon who's on his right side and who some fans claimed to be so chummy with Takahashi. If Takahashi was able to fully rotate his quad most of the time and got the points just like Patrick, would you guys still complain and said it is unfair? Perhaps only if Patrick was banned from competing, than maybe some of his uber fans would feel happy.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
How about this:

No credit system

4T (solid, +1 GOE)
2A (fall)
3T (fall)
3S (fall)

Total: 11.3 points

4T (fall)
2A (0 GOE)
3T (0 GOE)
3S (0 GOE)

Total: 11.5 points

Is that what you feel would be an accurate representation of what you want to see.

Was this addressed to me? Yes, that sounds about right.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Aren't all skaters subject to the same set of rules? This is so absurd I don't even know what to say. Would you say that if Takahashi was taking advantage of this?!

The more I read the posts by some people in this thread, the more I feel sorry for Takahashi to have this kind of fans. In case you people don't know or refuse to see, Takahashi and Patrick are indeed on friendly terms, take a look at the 4CC Q&A clip, it was Patrick that Takahashi turned to for help for the correct English term instead of the other skaters. If he's of the same mindset of some of his uber fans, he wouldn't have turned to Patrick but to Adam Rippon who's on his right side and who some fans claimed to be so chummy with Takahashi. If Takahashi was able to fully rotate his quad most of the time and got the points just like Patrick, would you guys still complain and said it is unfair? Perhaps only if Patrick was banned from competing, than maybe some of his uber fans would feel happy.

I am not talking about Patrick!! Why do Patrick fans think that everything is about hating Patrick?
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
How about this:

No credit system

4T (solid, +1 GOE)
2A (fall)
3T (fall)
3S (fall)

Total: 11.3 points

4T (fall)
2A (0 GOE)
3T (0 GOE)
3S (0 GOE)

Total: 11.5 points

Is that what you feel would be an accurate representation of what you want to see?

4T (solid, +1 GOE)
2A (fall)
3T (fall)
3S (fall)

Total: 11.3 points - 3 points for mandatory dedcution = 8.3

4T (fall)
2A (0 GOE)
3T (0 GOE)
3S (0 GOE)

Total: 11.5 points-1 point for mandatory deduction = 10.5

Compared to the current system:

4T (solid + 1) = 10.3 + 1 = 11.3
2A (fall) = 3.3 - 1.5 -1 = 0.8
3T (fall) = 4.1 - 2.1 -1 = 1
3S (fall) = 4.2 - 2.1 -1 = 1.1
Total = 14.2

4T (fall) = 10.30 -3 -1 = 7.3
2A (0 GOE) = 3.3
3T (0 GOE) = 4.1
3S (0 GOE) = 4.2
Total = 17.9

10.5/8.3 = 1.27 (no credit system) > 17.9/14.2 = 1.26 (current system) ==> The no credit system slightly favors the cleaner program.
Of course, when we change the system into a no-credit system, the base mark shall be changed as well. So the comparison is just a rough idea (for fun only).
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Hmmm... Don't see the problem with the 2A. It doesn't seem like a loophole to me. He's used up all of his slots for 'jumps of three or more rotations'. He should be penalized and have one less pass then other competitors? Maybe 2A are over scored? My only question is why he didn't put on a 2T at the end of it at 4CC. He only had 2 combos.

Does the triple lutz - half loop - triple salchow count as a three jump combo? To me it shouldn't. I don't think the 1/2 loop adds to the points
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Well, the double-axel option becomes attractive to skaters who can do one type of quad and uses up two types of triples for one jump pass, like what Patrick is doing (and uses the other jump passes to repeat two types of triple-jumps), which is all good and well. I object to that skater then being able to get maybe 4 points for doing a double axel (3.3 base points plus maybe another 0.5 GOE and increase value if done in the second-half) because doing a double-axel is easy. The skater, for being able to do one type of quad not only gets more points than before at less risk for that jump, he also gets to add 4 extra points for doing something really easy.

I would not at all object if the skater filled the extra pass with a different quad (quad salchow).

a) Not all senior skaters can do a triple axel. It's practically a requirement, of course for the top of the heap, but there is a reason why it hasn't become a hard-and-fast rule. So would you argue that there shouldn't be ANY double axels in men's singles skating (presumably, you'd dislike single axels as well), or that if you do a quad you shouldn't be allowed to do a double/single axel?

b) Even skaters who do two types of quads will use a double axel as a jump pass (Brezina at the 2011 worlds, for example)
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I am not criticizing Patrick for taking advantage of the loophole. I am criticizing the fact that the loophole exists.

I just don't understand why you call it a loophole. It's like legitimate tax deductions allowed for everybody such as pension contribution or charity donation. It is in the open and open to everybody. Of course one needs to have a little willing cash for these allowances and a skater needs sufficient skills to make creative use of the new legal combo. A loophole sounds covert and is available to a very privileged and cunning few.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
4T (solid, +1 GOE)
2A (fall)
3T (fall)
3S (fall)

Total: 11.3 points - 3 points for mandatory dedcution = 8.3

4T (fall)
2A (0 GOE)
3T (0 GOE)
3S (0 GOE)

Total: 11.5 points-1 point for mandatory deduction = 10.5

Compared to the current system:

4T (solid + 1) = 10.3 + 1 = 11.3
2A (fall) = 3.3 - 1.5 -1 = 0.8
3T (fall) = 4.1 - 2.1 -1 = 1
3S (fall) = 4.2 - 2.1 -1 = 1.1
Total = 14.2

4T (fall) = 10.30 -3 -1 = 7.3
2A (0 GOE) = 3.3
3T (0 GOE) = 4.1
3S (0 GOE) = 4.2
Total = 17.9

10.5/8.3 = 1.27 (no credit system) > 17.9/14.2 = 1.26 (current system) ==> The no credit system slightly favors the cleaner program.
Of course, when we change the system into a no-credit system, the base mark shall be changed as well. So the comparison is just a rough idea (for fun only).

That first 11.5 should be 11.7, right? 3.3+4.1+4.3.

In the "0 credit for a fall" proposal there would be no need for a mandatory one point deduction. Zero = zero. If a skater falls just skating along, that could be taken into account in the PCSs.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Hmmm... Don't see the problem with the 2A. It doesn't seem like a loophole to me. He's used up all of his slots for 'jumps of three or more rotations'. He should be penalized and have one less pass then other competitors? Maybe 2A are over scored? My only question is why he didn't put on a 2T at the end of it at 4CC. He only had 2 combos.

Does the triple lutz - half loop - triple salchow count as a three jump combo? To me it shouldn't. I don't think the 1/2 loop adds to the points

The 1/2 Loop is scored as 1Lp to count this combination as a combo instead of a sequence. This opens up for more doable jumps other than just 2T/2Lp. Patrick takes advantage to do a 3S as the 3rd jump. Pretty cool.

Patrick does 2A as the highest value jump available to him after all the other jumps. He repeats 4T and 3Lz.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
In the "0 credit for a fall" proposal there would be no need for a mandatory one point deduction. Zero = zero. If a skater falls just skating along, that could be taken into account in the PCSs.
I always thought that the mandatory deduction is for its negative impact on PCS as a whole. Zero means "the skater earns nothing from that element", but its negative effect on the general appeal still needs to be addressed somewhere. Of course, we can get rid of mandatory deductions and change the way how we score PCSs. But for the sake of this little exercise, we may simply use a deduction to reflect that negative effect.
 
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hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
a) Not all senior skaters can do a triple axel. It's practically a requirement, of course for the top of the heap, but there is a reason why it hasn't become a hard-and-fast rule. So would you argue that there shouldn't be ANY double axels in men's singles skating (presumably, you'd dislike single axels as well), or that if you do a quad you shouldn't be allowed to do a double/single axel?

b) Even skaters who do two types of quads will use a double axel as a jump pass (Brezina at the 2011 worlds, for example)

I agree with what SkateFiguring suggested, that there should be a relaxing of the Zayak rules for triples and quads in men's. And I think the Zayak rule should become more stringent for doubles, though I don't know exactly how. When a skater who can do quads uses the freed up pass to fill it with doubles, he's getting what I consider to be a bonus (or 'loophole' or whatever is the appropriate word) that he shouldn't have the opportunity to earn. The new system already awards more points for quads and triple-axels at less risk, and if the skater can then also earn easy points for doing doubles, well, I find that objectionable.

Also, and this is another issue that flickers through my mind when reading this CoP discussion, there should be some bonus points given for skaters who do the full range of triples. If there were, maybe Brezina would have been encouraged to not include a double-axel.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
^^^ Patrick does a 2A exactly because he has done a full range of triples and none else is available to him. Do you think he should give up a jumping pass?
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
The 1/2 Loop is scored as 1Lp to count this combination as a combo instead of a sequence. This opens up for more doable jumps other than just 2T/2Lp. Patrick takes advantage to do a 3S as the 3rd jump. Pretty cool.

Yeah - just wasn't sure if it counted as the one 3 jump combo they can do. Guess it does. To me it would make more sense to just not count the 1/2 loop as points and count it as a 2 jump combo. That would let Patrick do a 3F-2T-2Lo or 2A-2T-2Lo if he wanted to. At GPF he had the 3F as a combo, but not at 4CC. (Not try to scrounge more points for Patrick - it just doesn't seem like a 3 jump combo to me)


In the "0 credit for a fall" proposal there would be no need for a mandatory one point deduction. Zero = zero. If a skater falls just skating along, that could be taken into account in the PCSs.

What about a fall in footwork or at the end of a long complex spin. 0 pts for the entire element there too?
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, the double-axel option becomes attractive to skaters who can do one type of quad and uses up two types of triples for one jump pass, like what Patrick is doing (and uses the other jump passes to repeat two types of triple-jumps), which is all good and well. I object to that skater then being able to get maybe 4 points for doing a double axel (3.3 base points plus maybe another 0.5 GOE and increase value if done in the second-half) because doing a double-axel is easy.

For skaters who can do quads and triple axels, yes. Not a challenge for most senior men. Still, all senior men get 8 jumping passes in the free program and it's up to each of them to fill those passes with as much jump content as they're capable of. Under the current rules there's no direct reward for the difficulty of combining two different triple (or higher) jumps in the same jumping pass. The indirect reward is an extra pass to earn a few extra points. It's the same reward for being able to put a triple toe or triple loop on the end of another triple or a quad. The skater who has the skills to do triples other than triple toe at the end of a combo or sequence gets more rewards than the skater who only has one kind of end-with-a-triple skill.

The skater, for being able to do one type of quad not only gets more points than before at less risk for that jump,

Not sure what you mean by this. He gets more points at less risk for the one quad because the quad base values have gone up and the value of the minus GOEs have gone down since 2 years ago?
That has nothing to do with the change in how half-loop sequences/combos are valued. And those can benefit a lot more skaters than the handful who can do quads.

I would like to see Zayak rule relaxed for a second jump (triple or higher). Maybe more than 2 kinds of triples or quads can be repeated if included as a second jump. E.g. It'll be so cool to see 3A as a second jump such as Hanyu's 3A+3A, without him sacrificing points.

Well, the reason 3A+3A isn't highly rewarded isn't because of the Zayak rule, but because it requires a step between the two jumps and therefore gets the sequence penalty.

If the rules were changed to give full base value for sequences and a bonus multiplier for true combinations, then 3A+3A would be more valuable because it wouldn't be necessary to use up one of the two repeated jumps with a 3T.

It's been brought up frequently enough that combos are not adequately recognized and rewarded. I feel the current GOE awarded really shortchange jump combos. Essentially the GOE values are assigned according to the first jump without any additional consideration for the subsequent jump(s) which can however actually decrease the GOE rewarded if not executed as well as the first jump. A skater can easily receive less marks for doing more.

Not sure what you mean here. The value of the GOE for a combination is whatever GOE value of the highest value jump of the combination is worth, regardless of whether that jump comes first or second.

Hurrah, anybody can use that "loophole" if they want or could. It wasn't created for Chan, and somebody else, probably Hanyu, could be even more creative to make even better use of it. I don't see what the problem is. Rather, I'm very surprised no one else took advantage of the new rule last season and then this season Rippon seems to be the only other skater doing the new combo.[/QUOTE]

Denis Ten and Max Aaron have also been doing lutz-half loop-salchow this season, apparently planning but not always succeeding at making both the lutz and the salchow triples.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
My only question is why he didn't put on a 2T at the end of it at 4CC. He only had 2 combos.

There are two theories about that. One is that he intended 3Lz+2T as he did at Skate Canada, but his landing on his second Lutz was bobbled a little and he couldn't tack on the second jump on.

The other is that Lori Nicole imposed the mercy rule. Patrick was already winning by 20 points. No need to rub it in with an extra 1.4 points for a measly double toe. ;)

Does the triple lutz - half loop - triple salchow count as a three jump combo?

Yes. As SkateFiguring mentioned, the half-loop is scored as a single loop and gets 0.5 points.

ivy said:
At GPF he had the 3F as a combo, but not at 4CC.

At the Grand Prix Final his quad combo wasn't secure and he had to do 4T+2T instead of 4T+3T. To make up for this he ad-libbed the extra 3T onto his Lutz later in the program.
 
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hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
^^^ Patrick does a 2A exactly because he has done a full range of triples and none else is available to him. Do you think he should give up a jumping pass?

Patrick's performance has a CoP-smart layout plan and I commend his team for coming up with it and Patrick for having the very high skills to execute it. I am not saying that Patrick alone should give up a jump pass that is available to him under the present system. Let's put it this way. I am saying that no skater who can do a quad and full range of triples should be limited to doing a double-axel with the extra jump pass. The rules should be changed so that he can put in another triple. And there should be a bonus point for being able to do a full range of triples.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Yeah - just wasn't sure if it counted as the one 3 jump combo they can do. Guess it does. To me it would make more sense to just not count the 1/2 loop as points and count it as a 2 jump combo. That would let Patrick do a 3F-2T-2Lo or 2A-2T-2Lo if he wanted to. At GPF he had the 3F as a combo, but not at 4CC.

The 2T+2Lo combo was exactly what he used to do and what most skaters still do. The 1/2Lo combo is way cool and scores a little higher as well. Patrick missed a 2T at 4CC because of landing problem with his 3Lz. I guess he should have tacked it to the 3F earlier. It's crazy to do a 3Lz+2T so late and with such entry. There is room for higher scores at Worlds. ;)
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Patrick's performance has a CoP-smart layout plan and I commend his team for coming up with it and Patrick for having the very high skills to execute it. I am not saying that Patrick alone should give up a jump pass that is available to him under the present system. Let's put it this way. I am saying that no skater who can do a quad and full range of triples should be limited to doing a double-axel with the extra jump pass. The rules should be changed so that he can put in another triple. And there should be a bonus point for being able to do a full range of triples.

Now I see where you come from, except wouldn't you consider it an even greater loophole for the very few top jumpers?
 
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