Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

Mathman · Feb 23, 2012

ivy said:
What about a fall in footwork or at the end of a long complex spin. 0 pts for the entire element there too?

I am undecided about that.

To me a jump seems different from a spin or footwork. Landing the jump seems like the big kahuna in deciding yes or no, did you do anything or not. A spin seems different.

If you do a fast well-centered spin with a lot of variations, etc., to me it seems like you have done a fast well-centered spin with a lot of variations, etc. But if you leap into the air and come down on your butt, you just look foolish. (JMO.

)

hurrah · Feb 23, 2012

gkelly said:
gkelly said:

Not sure what you mean by this. He gets more points at less risk for the one quad because the quad base values have gone up and the value of the minus GOEs have gone down since 2 years ago?

Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I mean.

gkelly said:

[That has nothing to do with the change in how half-loop sequences/combos are valued. And those can benefit a lot more skaters than the handful who can do quads.

Click to expand...

Indeed, it has nothing to do with the quad but has everything to do with Patrick choosing to do a double-axel. If Patrick couldn't do this super combo, he would still have a free triple to fill the last eighth pass with. That's why I said it was someone who can do quad and half-loop combo who would find a double-axel desirable.

hurrah · Feb 23, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
Now I see where you come from, except wouldn't you consider it an even greater loophole for the very few top jumpers?

No, because triples are harder than doubles and someone who can put in an extra triple has done something that he should get points for.

deedee1 · Feb 23, 2012

Indeed.

Patrick's advantage above everyone is two 4Ts, two 3Lzs, one 3A, and extra 2A as his final jump pass by doing 3Lz+half loop+3S.

In odrer to outskate him in jump-wise, a skater who does not (or cannot) do that half-loop sequence, has to do something like: two 4Ts, two 3As as well as other triple jumps. That must be very difficult even for a top skater to skate CLEAN. Because, normally, skaters with two quads do not include second 3A.

The only skaters I can think of would be: healthier Evgeni, Dai before knee injury, more consistent Javier, or future Yuzuru after gaining more muscle and stamina.

That is what makes Patrick 'unbeatable', along with his sperior skating skills, at the moment.

When many top skaters start including two quads leading up to Sochi, I think second 3A will become the 'key' for OGM.

Violet Bliss · Feb 23, 2012

Mathman said:
At the Grand Prix Final his quad combo wasn't secure and he had to do 4T+2T instead of 4T+3T. To make up for this he ad-libbed the extra 3T onto his Lutz later in the program.

It wasn't an extra 3T but rather a switch since 2T had been done instead. Point wise he gained with the switch because of the bonus on the 3T. It is a smarter layout but 4T+3T at opening is a wow factor to set up the whole program.

spikydurian · Feb 23, 2012

skatinginbc said:
That's why there come the complaints: "They can compete, but they cannot win." "The winner is already decided before the competition."

This is an unfair statement. The winner is not decided (this implies cheating on the part of the judges and ISU). It is just that there is currently (I used currently as there may be another upcoming dominant skater in future or next couple of years as life as in competition is never static) one dominant skater ie. Patrick in 2011. Judging from the threads, it is obvious that some of you are winching because he is dominant (state of play may be different if Plushy comes back or Dai gets his quad). Despite gkelly's brilliant and knowledgeble articulation :bow:

of the current marking system, you all are not satisfied. And gkelly is so right to constantly point out that competition is relative too. It never exists in a vacuum. It is not Patrick's fault if the current criteria benefits skaters like him or those with skating skills like him or there is lack of strong skaters. You can move the 'goal post' so that he will score less with falls or errors. But remember, the goal post applies to all competitors. It may come back to bite one of your future skaters. Then what? Move the goal post again?
Patrick and Dai are unlikely to stick around for competitive figure skating post Sochi. So let's analyse who are the upcoming skaters who are likely to ace the competition based on current marking criteria? I think the Japanese will dominate. They clearly have depth.

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 23, 2012

Okay, so hurrah, what you're saying is that a skater that does two quads should be allowed to repeat two types of triples as well, correct? Or would it be fairer to say that quads should be removed from the Zayak rule - as doubles are. Presuming we keep the combo rule in effect (cannot do two solo triples of the same type, one must be in a combo), Chan would replace the 2A with a 3S. I have to admit that I adore the choreography surrounding the 2A in Aranjuez (as well as in POTO) so it'd be a shame to lose it (Abbott had a gorgeous one in his Olympic season LP as well).

But I want to mention that those who do the 2A aren't doing it because they can't do all the triples - Brezina can do a 4S (so he can probably do a 3S) and Fernandez at Worlds did both a 4T and a 4S, as well as doing all six types of jumps as triples (and included a double axel)

Mathman · Feb 23, 2012

skatinginbc said:
I always thought that the mandatory deduction is for its negative impact on PCS as a whole. Zero means "the skater earns nothing from that element", but its negative effect on the general appeal still needs to be addressed somewhere. Of course, we can get rid of mandatory deductions and change the way how we score PCSs. But for the sake of this little exercise, we may simply use a deduction to reflect that negative effect.

If I remember correctly the fall deduction was added to the rules exactly because of this very debate. The sine qua non of skating is keep the metal side down. A fall was not just "another error" but rather the error that was absolutely unforgivable in a skating contest.

What if skater fell down -- fell down! -- but won anyway? Figure skating would be the laughingstock of the sporting world. So this is an absolute penalty taken right off the top to protect the integrity of the sport.

I agree, though, that the way falls and other obvious errors factor into the PCSs needs continuing review.

gkelly · Feb 23, 2012

deedee1 said:
Patrick's advantage above everyone is two 4Ts, two 3Lzs, one 3A, and extra 2A as his final jump pass by doing 3Lz+half loop+3S.

In odrer to outskate him in jump-wise, a skater who does not (or cannot) do that half-loop sequence, has to do something like: two 4Ts, two 3As as well as other triple jumps. That must be very difficult even for a top skater to skate CLEAN. Because, normally, skaters with two quads do not include second 3A.

Well, yes.

Similarly, a skater who can do a triple something-triple toe combination has an advantage over a skater who can't do any triple-triple combos. A skater who can do triple something-triple loop has an advantage over the skater who can do 3-3 combos only with toe loop on the end, because s/he could then do two 3-3 combos repeating the higher valued 3Lo instead of 3T. Even better if s/he can do, say, 3Lz+3Lo and 3F+3T and then repeat both triple lutz and flip (or triple axel if s/he's got one) instead of loop or toe loop.

Having more variety of skills allows you to earn more points. This is as it should be, not a "loophole."

hurrah · Feb 23, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Okay, so hurrah, what you're saying is that a skater that does two quads should be allowed to repeat two types of triples as well, correct? Or would it be fairer to say that quads should be removed from the Zayak rule - as doubles are.

That would mostly work for me. I just think skaters who can do quads (given the point increase and less risk) shouldn't then also be given the opportunity to raise their points even further by doing easy doubles, but should be expected to demonstrate their high skills by at least doing triples to get more points.

:laugh:

Maybe I'm greedy.

Violet Bliss · Feb 23, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
But I want to mention that those who do the 2A aren't doing it because they can't do all the triples - Brezina can do a 4S (so he can probably do a 3S) and Fernandez at Worlds did both a 4T and a 4S, as well as doing all six types of jumps as triples (and included a double axel)

There is also the stamina issue. Just because one has the skills to do more kinds of quads does not mean one is able to do so many quads and triples in one program in competition. Brezina, e.g. falls on lesser jumps close to the end of his program. Even Fernandez sometimes has troubles maintaining his energy and athleticism throughout his LP. Quads and high level footwork are very draining.

Mathman · Feb 23, 2012

I have to admit that I adore the choreography surrounding the 2A in Aranjuez (as well as in POTO) so it'd be a shame to lose it (Abbott had a gorgeous one in his Olympic season LP as well).

This!

The double Axel is the prettiest jump known to man.

Well, it is the prettiest jump known to woman., anyway. The triple Axel is the prettiest jump known to man.

I also think this is the reason that a few skaters omit the 3Something+2T+2Lo. It is ugly in its own right and stops the choreography in its tracks. Better to give up that extra point or two and do a program you can be proud of. :yes:

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 23, 2012

hurrah said:
That would mostly work for me. I just think skaters who can do quads (given the point increase and less risk) shouldn't then also be given the opportunity to raise their points even further by doing easy doubles, but should be expected to demonstrate their high skills by at least doing triples to get more points.

Maybe I'm greedy.

I understand what you're saying. I completely disagree with it, granted, but I understand.

skatinginbc · Feb 23, 2012

spikydurian said:
Patrick and Dai are unlikely to stick around for competitive figure skating post Sochi. So let's analyse who are the upcoming skaters who are likely to ace the competition based on current marking criteria? I think the Japanese will dominate. They clearly have depth.

I remember there is another Chan or Chen coming to the scene. A Chinese American? One Chan after another, we'll never get bored.

Violet Bliss · Feb 23, 2012

skatinginbc said:
I remember there is another Chan or Chen is coming to the scene. A Chinese American? One Chan after another, we'll never get bored.

That would be Nathan Chen. Same family name in Chinese. So are Chen Lu and Mervin Tran. Chan is Cantonese and Tran is Indo-Chinese, as is Tan in S E Asia, from Fujian dialect.

Also interesting is that Christina Gao has the exact same Chinese name, Hao, as Hao Zhang. It's not even that common.

Mathman · Feb 23, 2012

Here's Nathan two year ago, age 10. I take back what I just said about a double/double/double combo harming the choreography.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRHimaaLOYg

Boeing787 · Feb 23, 2012

deedee1 said:
Indeed.

Patrick's advantage above everyone is two 4Ts, two 3Lzs, one 3A, and extra 2A as his final jump pass by doing 3Lz+half loop+3S.

In odrer to outskate him in jump-wise, a skater who does not (or cannot) do that half-loop sequence, has to do something like: two 4Ts, two 3As as well as other triple jumps. That must be very difficult even for a top skater to skate CLEAN. Because, normally, skaters with two quads do not include second 3A.

The only skaters I can think of would be: healthier Evgeni, Dai before knee injury, more consistent Javier, or future Yuzuru after gaining more muscle and stamina.

That is what makes Patrick 'unbeatable', along with his sperior skating skills, at the moment.

When many top skaters start including two quads leading up to Sochi, I think second 3A will become the 'key' for OGM.

You can add Nan Song to the list.

Violet Bliss · Feb 23, 2012

For levity and to back up fscric's point of the friendship between the two skaters we are discussing, here is a snipshot taken out of another video focusing on Rippon and Wagner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2wyGm0Bh4c

spikydurian · Feb 24, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
For levity and to back up fscric's point of the friendship between the two skaters we are discussing, here is a snipshot taken out of another video focusing on Rippon and Wagner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2wyGm0Bh4c

OMG

The music is funny and adds to the hilarity of the video. I thought Patrick and Dai look very 'loving'... when Patrick kind of help him to get on the ice. For a moment, I thought they are going to skate away hand in hand. :biggrin:

seniorita · Feb 24, 2012

I love sequences with the half loop, they are so cool and the skaters who do them seem light on their feet. What other sequence is possible to do?

Can Takahashi Close The Gap On Patrick Chan?

Mathman

hurrah

hurrah

deedee1

Violet Bliss

spikydurian

ImaginaryPogue

Mathman

gkelly

hurrah

Violet Bliss

Mathman

ImaginaryPogue

skatinginbc

Violet Bliss

Mathman

Boeing787

Violet Bliss

spikydurian

seniorita

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