Challenges in developing successful Pair teams: programs & proposed solutions?

Mathman said:

Almost all Americans are descended from people who left the countries of their birth seeking new opportunities.

Click to expand...

And, well, this whole nation was founded by a set of defectors...so...

Serious Business said:

But still, there are less injuries during competitions compared to sports like hockey and football.

Click to expand...

There's more opportunity for players in those sports to get hurt during an event. They play longer, and there's aggressive physical contact... so, yeah, Pairs is dangerous, but the freak accidents are fewer and far-er between lol

Nadine said:

To tell the truth I've always looked down on defectors.

Click to expand...

Why should they stay in a country where there is no opportunity? When the state was no longer paying them, they needed to survive some way and came to the US to teach. Igor has stayed, but several others have returned. When skating was no longer a 'state' job, it's no longer patriotic to do that job.

Serious Business said:

Thanks for the fascinating and rich info, CoyoteChris! BTW, what? You've seen 20 plane crashes? Eek, I hope some of them made it out OK.

I had a feeling Igor is loyal and grateful to America, thanks for confirming it! He certainly has made outsized contributions to the country. Without him, the US would not have had medalists in the last two World Championships. As an American, I'm grateful to him and Marina.

Pairs may seem dangerous, and it is. But still, there are less injuries during competitions compared to sports like hockey and football.

Click to expand...

I think there are many intellegent talented folk who came to this country knowing they could embrase the American dream and make it work. The dream is still there. Its just a bit harder to achieve than it was in my time.
Igor and Marina said in their article that they would even like more young folk to come to them. They love what they do. I am much prouder of them being Americans than I am of many politicians. Yes, danger is a relative thing but I have to wonder what the long term effect will be of landing those big throws on a certain German lady's body. I was there when Jessica Dube got a skate in the face and we have all seen very bad accidents on TV.
But there are many smaller wrecks...at SA Portland, IIRC, Sui and Han had a bad wreck into the boards at practice right in front of us and he took her into his arms and comforted her as much as he could but she was badly shaken....you feel so helpless three ft away from those incidents....
(Actually, I have seen more than 20 aircraft crashes. I am a pilot and every year I attend the Oshkosh Experimental aircraft Association fly-in ...watching 10,000 aircraft trying to land and take off is kinda like watching novice pairs without the boards protecting you. And I also go to the Reno National Air races and there are lots of non fatal crashes and forced landings into the dirt there also....as well as the sadder variety. )

Olympia said:

Chris, what you said about Russians and others coming here as skaters and coaches reminds me of what happened before and during World War II in terms of classical music. A lot of Europe's great instrumentalists and conductors in Central Europe were either Jewish or otherwise suspect to the Nazis. So they got out and came here. As a result, for decades nearly every major American symphony orchestra had a conductor from Europe: Eugene Ormandy in Philadelphia, George Szell in Cleveland, Otto Klemperer in Los Angeles, Antal Dorati in Minnesota...it's amazing Europe had anyone left. It led to a flowering of music in this country that hasn't really faded yet. I hope the parallel holds true with figure skating. We could use such a flowering in more than just ice dancing.

(Like you, Chris, I can't bring myself to watch Novice pairs...it's more frightening than auto racing!)

Click to expand...

Hey Olympia, you and are are maybe the last two people who still like classical music!!! Mr. Nicks is a prime example of someone who saw opertunity and came here after the 1961 plane crash and has been very successful.
People around the world bad mouth the US, but have you noticed that everyone seems to want to come here and not leave here? If Mr. Morozov wants to go back to Russia, that is fine. Just leave Miki here....
Chris who wont go to skating when its all about rap music.

CoyoteChris said:

Hey Olympia, you and are are maybe the last two people who still like classical music!!! Mr. Nicks is a prime example of someone who saw opertunity and came here after the 1961 plane crash and has been very successful.
People around the world bad mouth the US, but have you noticed that everyone seems to want to come here and not leave here? If Mr. Morozov wants to go back to Russia, that is fine. Just leave Miki here....
Chris who wont go to skating when its all about rap music.

Click to expand...

You're not the only ones. I listen to nothing but classical.

Yes, Chris, I'm happy to say that I think there's a good-sized bunch of us classical music lovers. Some GS folk can even play an instrument at a very high level, from what I gather in their posts. We're among friends! Every now and then someone starts a thread about what music various skaters should perform to...they're among my favorite threads. Say, isn't it about time for another one?

Lol I see this thread has deviated and gone way off topic per usual (somebody even sent me a PM about this).

Anyhow, I'd just like to say we all come from various countries, backgrounds, experiences, education, et al, so we're bound to knock heads every now & again. This is why there's the PM button, which I rarely use, however since tonight I have some extra time on my hands I will answer every one that has sent me a PM since Nationals (better late than never). *

Back on topic, whatever may come, I just hope that American Pairs eventually earn a medal again at Worlds sometime, as "it's been a long time coming". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbO2_077ixs

Serious Business said:

Like I said before, the prizes for pairs and ice dancing are much less in $$$, and then they have to be split.

Click to expand...

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but that is inaccurate. Prizes for dance teams/pairs are larger than for singles at ISU Championships, and identical at GPs (as of this season - I think they were bigger in the past). It is true, however, that once divided between two skaters, it comes out to less than the prizes for singles.

What's needed for US pairs is for people to stick together. When you have two elite skaters like V/T results will come immediately at the international level, but otherwise, it takes time and teams should be given the opportunity to gel together and to try and (gasp) occasionally fail; it's part of the learning experience. It would also help if pairs is considered a first choice and not a backup plan; while it is possible to convert from singles to pairs relatively late (e.g. Stefania Berton, Katarina Gerboldt) it's better to start earlier. I would also suggest that 20-something year old guys not be paired with the first tiny teenage girl who couldn't get her triples. When you do that, there's too much pressure on the younger partner, who should really be learning and improving for the first few years. Not to mention, some of these girls will eventually become too big for their partner, so you end up with another short-lived partnership. It's probably no coincidence that the top dance teams in the world have been together forever (D/W and V/M since 1997, I think? And P/B since 2000), and the top pairs in the world have all been skating in that discipline for quite a while (S/S, V/T, P/T, K/S).

Buttercup said:

I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but that is inaccurate. Prizes for dance teams/pairs are larger than for singles at ISU Championships, and identical at GPs (as of this season - I think they were bigger in the past). It is true, however, that once divided between two skaters, it comes out to less than the prizes for singles.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction! I either remembered it wrong or it used to be that way.

CoyoteChris, what happened to those pilots? Did they make it out ok?

Also, I didn't mean to downplay the dangers of pair skating, although now that i look back on the post it sure read like it! The COP does try to address the danger in pairs at lower levels by making level features easier to achieve for skaters in junior. I hope it's enough. If not, I suspect the ISU won't make any changes unless someone gets hurt.

I like classical music, or as I prefer to think of it, traditional symphonic/orchestral music, a form that is still thriving as film and TV scores. I grew up on it, trained in it, even wrote a few pieces, but now I mostly listen to the latest music. There are more people making beautiful new art everyday, and it's easier to enjoy the results than ever. Although, I wouldn't want to see any skaters skate to hip hop either, just because I don't think any of them can pull the timing and movement off.

Buttercup said:

It would also help if pairs is considered a first choice and not a backup plan.

Click to expand...

This is so true and important. I strongly get the sense that pairs has nowhere near the same prestige as singles in the US (same with ice dancing, but that has to be changing). Whereas in Russia and China, pairs gets more love, respect and adoration than singles in some cases. Thus, inevitably, you will have great skaters gravitating to pairs in those countries, whereas that's less likely to happen in the US. It would make a difference if pairs is simply lauded and held up in the US as a worthy achievement.

Wish I had a magic bullet to make pairs popular and indeed all of figure skating popular. I was watching the French GP Oct 2009 last night again and there were quite a few empty seats there as there are at many events.
Maybe things will change. As for the danger, well, the risk vs. reward must be decided by the skaters themselves, or, in the case of minors, by the parents....just as you and I decide every day if its worth it to get into that car and face drunk, tired, sick and distracted drivers.
Serious Business...well, many pilots walk away from wrecks....some walk away with minor injuries....in 2007, three didnt make it....sigh.....but a bit of good news! I am going to be in a movie! Look for me at the one minute 12 second point of this trailer.....Mr. Demille...I am ready for my closeup.....
http://www.youtube.com/user/airracersthefilm/featured
Chris working on academy award acceptance speach

So which one are you, CoyoteChris? I hear that movie's going to be narrated by Paul Walker. If you meet him tell him Fast and Furious 6 better have a punny title, like 2 Fast 2 Furious, or else!

Good to hear that pilots do survive. I was picturing giant explosions in my head even though I should know that's not true.

I have all kinds of thoughts on how to make figure skating popular again, but that's for another thread.

As for pairs in the US, well, here's another thought: what if all the established US pair coaches have outdated/ineffective technique? Then promising pairs wind up with them and get ruined? Just throwing that out there, I have no evidence for this myself.

Shoot. I am getting senile...I appear at 58 seconds! I put 3 pics of me up on the photobucket site so you can find me better!
(Unfortunately, there are giant explosions.....and I have seen quite a few of those too. last year was the worst....11 dead, 70 injured.)
Actually, I think the coaches in pairs are the least of our worries.....and those of pairs around the world. Is Mr. Ingo Steuer a fantasic coach? Maybe.....
I dont know....but his pair sure has talent. If you have any new ideas on how to make skating popular, so that we get ESPN and ABC back on line, I am sure
Mr. Cinquanta or Ms. St. Peter would love to hear them. Didnt he say last go around that if he couldnt sell the broadcast rights he would give them away?
I suspect the whole issue of pairs and skating popularity in general , as well as the popularity of the arts, classical music, etc, is very complex. If someone can
figure it all out, more power to them. As for Canada being so successful , there must be something in the water up there.
Chris who hasnt the foggiest idea what people see in baseball, football, basket ball, and hockey

So you are Mr. Jelly Belly?

I have lots and lots and lots of ideas about the decline in popularity in the US of figure skating, classical music, classical art, among other things, how to get it back up, and how it might happen anyway. But that would probably be waaaay off topic. And I went on a big rant about it a while back on this board, if I recall.

I also have a few ideas about how the ISU and the USFS might better monetize figure skating, but that's also way off topic.

But back to pairs. I have no basis for blaming the US coaches. Rather, what I do have is admiration for coaches that make it work: Tamara Moskvina (I think it was her who once explained why she's making a pair team of hers do the quad twist: "To strike fear into the hearts of our enemies!"), who has shepherded many truly great pairs despite quite a few revolutions in the discipline in her ongoing career; Yao Bin, the Chinese pairs coach who not only created the discipline's dominance in China from scratch, but changed how everybody does pairs, and I respect Ingo Stauer, but it remains to be seen whether he can coach another team to greatness besides Savchenko/Szolkowy. And outside of pairs, there's Igor Shpilband. What the great coaches have in common is that they've helped multiple teams to great success, and enough of those teams to say that it's not just a matter of getting the right talent in students. These coaches must be doing something right. I want an American pairs coach like that. Who knows? We may already have one waiting to be discovered.