Who did what first?

skateluvr · Feb 20, 2012

Nadine said:
Copied & pasted from wikipedia's bio on Evgeni Plushenko:

The first skater in the world to perform a quadruple toe loop-triple toe loop-double loop jump (4–3–2) combination in competition, at the 1999 NHK Trophy (he has since landed his 4–3–2 combination 26 times so far). He is the first skater to have landed a quadruple toe loop-triple toe loop-triple loop (4–3–3) combination in competition, at the Cup of Russia 2002 (he has since landed his 4–3–3 combination four times so far). Plushenko is also the first skater to land a triple toe loop-triple toe loop-triple loop-double loop (3–3–3–2) combination, which was at the 2005 "Ard Gala". At the European Championships, he landed a six jump combination (3–3–2–2–2–2) in his exhibition program. He has landed a four jump combination; 4 toe loop-3 toe loop-2 loop-2 loop, at the World Championships in 2001. Plushenko has landed a consistent quadruple toe loop in competition, and has also landed a quadruple salchow in Samara, Russia at the 2004 "Second stage of Cup of Russia". It is estimated that he has landed a total of about 100 quads in competition.

And that is why he is the best athlete to date in FS. And he isn't done. i was not always the fan I am now, given my preference for the style and look of Yagudin. From 6.0 mastery to dominance in CoP (yes he gets rep and legend points, plus he's known to be a generous person/good guy despite the Russian bravaura that all russian champs have.) WOW WOW WOW.

Michelle Kwan is a distant second in medals won, and longevity. There is no male skater that remotely matches his record even if you dislike his style and think he is over rated. I now even like his more normal costumes. All that jumping and he can do a Biellman. FS biggest overachiever. Wish you were going to Worlds Evgeni, just to see you do your best is enough for me, and I suspect most long time FS fans.

Serious Business · Feb 20, 2012

With the advent of the COP, we have other records to consider, such as...

First ice dancing team to score level 4 on all applicable elements in a performance: Davis/White's FD at the 2006 NHK Trophy

Other firsts to consider..

Who's the first male singles skater to get level 4 on footwork? Who's the first female to do so? Who's the first pairs team to do that, too?

seniorita · Feb 21, 2012

We had said sometime ago that Charlie White was the first to get level 4 footwork when he was at singles.

Buttercup · Feb 21, 2012

Serious Business said:
Who's the first male singles skater to get level 4 on footwork? Who's the first female to do so? Who's the first pairs team to do that, too?

As far as I know, internationally it was Daisuke Takahashi (2005 NHK) and Carolina Kostner (2007 NHK). No idea about the first pair. Charlie White was the first American man to get a level 4, but it was in sectionals (I think) and not international competition.

For anyone interested in statistics rather than firsts, check out this website. The highest scoring element in their database is KvdP's 4-3-3 from 2010 Worlds.

dorispulaski · Feb 21, 2012

I believe KvdP was also the first to do 3t3t3t in competition.

And the first man to do 2 different quads in competition (4T and 4S) was Ilia Klimkin.

seniorita · Feb 21, 2012

^

KVDP zayaked himself?

Buttercup thanx a lot for the site. It uses results after 2006 though:think:. I ll bookmark it with the other one about music choices statistics Medusa had posted some years ago! :biggrin:

let`s talk · Feb 21, 2012

dorispulaski said:
Has Daisuke ever gotten credit for his 4F?

No, I think it was always underrotated. He said himself that his landing of 4F at the warm-up at NHK was the only successful attempt. For now.

Florian · Feb 21, 2012

I believe that Herma Szabó was the first woman to land an Axel. Has anyone credible sources for Henie having done it?

I also believe that Gaby Seyfert was the first woman to show a triple loop in 1968, but I have no proof for that.

Olympia · Feb 21, 2012

This thread is so cool!

I believe I remember hearing that Daisuke was the first man with Level 4 footwork. (Wouldn't Dai's statistic be the one that sticks in my mind!)

Mathman · Feb 21, 2012

seniorita said:
^ KVDP zayaked himself?

I think it was 3S+3T+3T. Here is 2003 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rosTPrSqjwY

Wikipedia says that he did this for the first time at 2002 World Juniors, but I think that's wrong. His 2002 World Juniors LP is on YouTube and he attempts 3Lz+3T+3T, but cannot get the third jump off. (He won the LP anyway and finished second over all -- to Daisuka Takahashi.

)

Van der Perren and Plushenko are the only two skaters who have done 4T+3T+3T. :rock:

Here is Kevin at 2010 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flWhZrA7NJM

gkelly · Feb 21, 2012

Mathman said:
I think it was 3S+3T+3T. Here is 2003 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rosTPrSqjwY

There it's 3S+3T+3Lo

Van der Perren and Plushenko are the only two skaters who have done 4T+3T+3T. Here is Kevin at 2010 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flWhZrA7NJM

Has Plushenko ever done 4T+3T+3T? I thought he did 4T+3T+3Lo (which is harder)

Buttercup · Feb 22, 2012

Mathman said:
Van der Perren and Plushenko are the only two skaters who have done 4T+3T+3T.

I'm pretty sure Plushenko did 4T-3T-3R, as did Kevin Reynolds at 2008 Canadian Nats.

seniorita · Feb 22, 2012

Mathman you didnt do the homework?

Plushy has done 4T+3T+3Lo in COR 2002 (first attempt with step out was at Olys 2002), I dont remember 4T+3T+3T from him. The next one was Reynolds as Buttercup said. He did a 4T-3Lo at warm up of of Euros 2006 (I remember cause eurosport guys were gushing ab it) which I found it veeery cool, has any skater done it in competition?

Kevin landed the 4-3-3 at worlds in front of me :biggrin:

Slowdive · Feb 22, 2012

So the Axel was the first jump?
When was the Flip introduced?

dorispulaski · Feb 22, 2012

I imagine the waltz jump was the first jump?

Florian · Feb 22, 2012

Regarding the basic jumps, my knowledge about the invention of them is this:

Axel: 1882 (Axel Paulsen)

Salchow: 1909 (Ulrich Salchow)

Rittberger (Loop): 1910 (Werner Rittberger)

Flip: around 1910 (maybe by Mapes)

Lutz: 1913 (Alois Lutz)

Toeloop: 1920’s (Bruce Mapes)

jcoates · Feb 22, 2012

Mathman said:
I think it was 3S+3T+3T. Here is 2003 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rosTPrSqjwY

Wikipedia says that he did this for the first time at 2002 World Juniors, but I think that's wrong. His 2002 World Juniors LP is on YouTube and he attempts 3Lz+3T+3T, but cannot get the third jump off. (He won the LP anyway and finished second over all -- to Daisuka Takahashi. )

Van der Perren and Plushenko are the only two skaters who have done 4T+3T+3T. Here is Kevin at 2010 Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flWhZrA7NJM

It was a 3s-3t-3t. I was there and it was amazing. Arakawa was also trying 3-3-3's (3z-3t-3lp) in the warmup at that event.

blue dog · Feb 22, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
I think a 4T+4T is more likely.

Would such an "exhausting" move be worth it? It might be best to keep the 4T/3T, then a solo 4T.

Since we're counting practice attempts, would we credit Tonia Kwiatkowski for landing the 4R in a Texaco commercial?

Mathman · Feb 22, 2012

blue dog said:
Would such an "exhausting" move be worth it? It might be best to keep the 4T/3T, then a solo 4T.

That's an interesting point. Gone are the days when a skater could do spectacular leaps just to show off. Now you have to calculate the points.

4T+4T
3A
3A+3T
3Lz
3F
2S
2A+2Lo+2Lo
? 2A ?

Total base points 67.4

4T+3T
4T
3A+2T
3A
3Lz
3F
3S
2A+2Lo+2Lo

Total base points 65.6.

So...yes, do the 4T+4T. It will net you 1.8 points.

gkelly · Feb 22, 2012

Mathman, did you intend for the 4T+4T skater to double his salchow and for neither of them to attempt a triple loop?

Although it's legal to attempt a quad-quad combination in a free program, the state of the art as of 2012 is such that even if a great jumper could pull off that combination successfully it's unlikely that he'd also be able to land 7 good triples and also get high marks for all components and non-jump elements, so it wouldn't necessarily guarantee a win. The same skater with the same skills could probably skate a better program by distributing his jumps differently.

I'd like to see a jumps-only competition (or phase of competition) formatted in such a way that it would be worthwhile for the best jumpers to try jumps and jump combinations at the very edge of what's possible, without either success or failure having a negative effect on the other 4 minutes of the program. In the jump event, athletic pyrotechnics would be the appeal for audiences.

In the free program, on the other hand, coherent, "well-balanced" combination of all different types of skills would still take precedence.

If they were separate parts of the same competition, a skater who successfully lands a good 4-4 combination might build up a good lead, which he could then sustain in the free program by including jumps and other skills at the top of but not pushing outside of his comfort level.

Who did what first?

skateluvr

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seniorita

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jcoates

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Mathman

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