Lysacek optimistic his issues with U.S. skating close to resolution

seniorita · Feb 27, 2012

Amodio did the 2-6 at Euros as well and served him well, he singled the axel in second half though. I need to rewatch the program, I cant remember how he managed to do only 4 elements before the second half.
Yags and Plush were doing 2 quads also in their lp for some seasons but never on second half.

Blades of Passion · Feb 27, 2012

Lysacek is still doing 3 jumping passes in the first half of the program and 5 later in the program. He's just moving the 3-3 combination from the first half to the second half and, with a Quad attempt in the program, it puts him at 6 Triples in the second half. It's not a new concept at all; Takahashi has been doing it since the 2006-2007 season.

Amodio and Reynolds both have 7 Triples in the second half of their programs this season. Reynolds does that with only 4 jumping passes in the second half of his program too, by attemping a 3-3 AND 3-3-3 combination.

deedee1 · Feb 27, 2012

I would prefer a well-balanced program including jump layout.

2-6 layout for Men, or 2-5 layout for Ladies is too much for me; its choreographies would look just plain boring to viewers.

While I am happy Miki won her second Worlds title and give her a credit doing 2-5 layout, she just skated SLOW in the first half to save energy.
I admire her efforts to pull it off, but Miki's program last year was not memorable. Amodio's this year which was dumped before Euros is the same in this regard.

Wasn't it Morozov who started this trend to backload jumps with Dai's Phantom program in 2006-07 season?
I remember Dai said, when Morozov gave him that program, while Dai loved the music and its choreo, he was not sure if he could ever pull it off.
Since that program gave him lots of points by doing jump after jump in the second half and lead him to silver medal, a lot of guys started doing 3-5 programs from the following seasons.

Of course, by backloading jumps, Evan raised BV and won his OGM without quads. But come on, 2-6 is just too much.

skateluvr · Feb 27, 2012

How about Yagugin with quads? Did he ever do a program with 3?

dorispulaski · Feb 27, 2012

No. Yagudin only performed a 4T, so he couldn't put 3 in the program, due to the Zayak rule.

deedee1 · Feb 27, 2012

skateluvr said:
How about Yagugin with quads? Did he ever do a program with 3?

No, I don't recall he ever did 3 quads program. He only did 4T, IIRC, no 4S or other types of quad jumps so he just could not.

It was 2001-2002 season when he was healthy before series of hip injuries (sad...), he only did 2 quads; mostly 4T-3T-2Lo and solo 4T.

At SLC Olympics, a lot of guys went for 2 quads, e.g. Honda, Abt, Li, but only 2 guys landed them; which was Yagudin and Plushy (Plushy's 4T-3T-3Lo with step-out looked severly underrotated, though). Geobel was the only guy who went for 3 quads and landed successfully. That's is why some people still complain he deserved more than the bronze.

skateluvr · Feb 27, 2012

I enjoyed Goebel by SLC. I think he did really well. He had this hunching problem that kind of ruined his line, but he improved so much. He was a sweet kid. I think he went on to engineering? I recall hearing Frank fired him at some point but don't recall anything else as I didn't pay much attention. It seemed my eyes were always on Yagudin. I loved his skating, the programs. Plush grew on me and is still growing, LOL. Timothy really was a wonder when he was jumping. Such fast rotation. Did he retire after Salt lake? I need to google him, I guess.

Serious Business · Feb 27, 2012

To bring this discussion full circle...

Ironically, you can thank Goebel's 3 quad program for why Evan Lysacek won the Olympics in 2010. When the COP was being created, and values for jumps were being decided, they used the men's event at SLC and its result as a guide. The ISU was adamant that the COP wouldn't score that event in such a way so that Goebel would win. And in their infinite wisdom, they decided that the way to do that was to keep the value of the quad low. Thus, when they applied the COP to the SLC Men's Event, the results were exactly the same. What could possibly go wrong?

In 2010, Evan Lysacek winds up winning the gold without even attempting a quad. Which is when the ISU realized they've made a huge mistake. In their desire to keep an unworthy American from winning Olympic gold theoretically, the ISU wound up boosting an unworthy American to Olympic gold for realsies. Oops!

So here's to Goebel, the boy skater with the quad and not much else whose uninspiring skating nearly eliminated his signature element from the sport, and inadvertently helped a countryman win the biggest prize in skating.

If it were me, I'd have instituted a mandatory 5 point deduction in each of the PCS (if the total PCS is in the negatives, it gets subtracted from the TES). That would've prevented a theoretical Goebel win, and saved us from hordes of sloppy-spined skaters.

Tonichelle · Feb 27, 2012

skateluvr said:
I enjoyed Goebel by SLC. I think he did really well. He had this hunching problem that kind of ruined his line, but he improved so much. He was a sweet kid. I think he went on to engineering? I recall hearing Frank fired him at some point but don't recall anything else as I didn't pay much attention. It seemed my eyes were always on Yagudin. I loved his skating, the programs. Plush grew on me and is still growing, LOL. Timothy really was a wonder when he was jumping. Such fast rotation. Did he retire after Salt lake? I need to google him, I guess.

Goebel and Frank split and Goebel continued until 2006 when he BOMBED and wasn't even close to the podium...

Olympia · Feb 27, 2012

skateluvr said:
I enjoyed Goebel by SLC. I think he did really well. He had this hunching problem that kind of ruined his line, but he improved so much. He was a sweet kid. I think he went on to engineering? I recall hearing Frank fired him at some point but don't recall anything else as I didn't pay much attention. It seemed my eyes were always on Yagudin. I loved his skating, the programs. Plush grew on me and is still growing, LOL. Timothy really was a wonder when he was jumping. Such fast rotation. Did he retire after Salt lake? I need to google him, I guess.

Goebel's posture was difficult to look at, but I think it was actually a structural problem rather than laziness. He seemed to have very narrow shoulders and a spine that just was shaped that way. Though the effect was not elegant, Tim's narrow shoulders might actually have helped him with his jumped, because an object turns faster when is mass is close to its axis. (Is that an accurate description of the situation, Mathman? I know what I'm getting at but don't know if I have the right language.) Like you, skateluvr, I had eyes only for Yagudin during those years. I was glad Tim won an Olympic medal, though.

According to what I remember, and confirmed by Wiki, he retired and finished his undergrad education in math. According to the article in Wikipedia, he is aiming to become a technical specialist. Wouldn't that be a nice way for him to continue in skating? I never heard anything bad about Goebel; he seems to be a nice guy who would be an asset to any field he chooses.

Tonichelle · Feb 28, 2012

His finest moment artistically IMO was his 2005 US Nationals SP - he was emotionally spent due to Angela Nikodinov's mother's death, and it was teh most beautiful skate I'd ever seen from him. Too bad he was given such a stupid program with the music from Queen... I was there the night he skated that SP, still the highlight of that nationals for me - minus the backstory of course.

gmyers · Feb 28, 2012

with the news of the backloading he'll be as aggressive as ever in trying to win without quads. Hopefully it's not successful! Horrible regression and backwardness won the 2010 Olympics mens comp but hopefull the rule changes will not make it possible again.

seniorita · Feb 28, 2012

deedee1 said:
No, I don't recall he ever did 3 quads program. He only did 4T, IIRC, no 4S or other types of quad jumps so he just could not.

It was 2001-2002 season when he was healthy before series of hip injuries (sad...), he only did 2 quads; mostly 4T-3T-2Lo and solo 4T.

At SLC Olympics, a lot of guys went for 2 quads, e.g. Honda, Abt, Li, but only 2 guys landed them; which was Yagudin and Plushy (Plushy's 4T-3T-3Lo with step-out looked severly underrotated, though). Geobel was the only guy who went for 3 quads and landed successfully. That's is why some people still complain he deserved more than the bronze.

Oh Honda's Lp (and his reaction after) and Abt's Sp are also programs I love to rewatch from SLC. I dont like American in Paris of Goebel, he looked down a lot and didnt sell the program at all on top of his posture. Yes Plush's 3Lo from the combo was underrotated. And I guess this way you can make a case Reynolds winning with his 3 quads over PChan too.

skateluvr · Feb 28, 2012

IJS and fs fans sound confused. Is it quad jumps we must see from the men? Then why do many say "SS" as done by Chan, with failed jumps ok? People are looking for different skating ideals and talents. We can't have it all. So what if there was no quad? He had to do steps, lots of steps. CoP perfection. Lots of ways to win points. He did it so well.

Buttercup · Feb 28, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
Yes but he took a big long rest before them, including a sustained standstill artistic expression. I love Lambiel but Chan has raised the bar with non stop footwork and transitions, even into quad jumps. It's hard to win with simple choreography and stalking jumps these days, not that Lambiel's choreography was simple, but there was a trade off for the big jumps during the top half of the program.

Yes, yes, Chan invented transitions and all programs that came before him were empty of any meaningful content. :rolleye:

You know, sometimes it's nice to have a stop to the non-stop footwork, so that the skater can, say, relate to the music, or hold an edge. Lambiel had some beautifully put together programs because he understood this.

Also, Chan does not have particularly difficult setups going into his quad toe compared to other skaters, but his camp has sure been good at convincing everyone that he does. I bow down to the politikking prowess; it's more impressive than anything Carroll ever managed to do for his skaters, and that's saying something.

skateluvr said:
How about Yagugin with quads? Did he ever do a program with 3?

deedee1 said:
No, I don't recall he ever did 3 quads program. He only did 4T, IIRC, no 4S or other types of quad jumps so he just could not.

It was 2001-2002 season when he was healthy before series of hip injuries (sad...), he only did 2 quads; mostly 4T-3T-2Lo and solo 4T.

At SLC Olympics, a lot of guys went for 2 quads, e.g. Honda, Abt, Li, but only 2 guys landed them; which was Yagudin and Plushy (Plushy's 4T-3T-3Lo with step-out looked severly underrotated, though). Geobel was the only guy who went for 3 quads and landed successfully. That's is why some people still complain he deserved more than the bronze.

To the best of my knowledge, three skaters have done a three-quad program: Timothy Goebel was the first, then Zhang Min (at SLC - the first to land three quads at the Olympics), and finally Brian Joubert. There has been no three-quad LP since 2006, though at least one skater (Kevin Reynolds) has attempted it.

deedee1 · Feb 28, 2012

Buttercup said:
To the best of my knowledge, three skaters have done a three-quad program: Timothy Goebel was the first, then Zhang Min (at SLC - the first to land three quads at the Olympics), and finally Brian Joubert. There has been no three-quad LP since 2006, though at least one skater (Kevin Reynolds) has attempted it.

Let me add one more program with 3 quads.
Takeshi Honda at 4CC 2003, where he did two 4Ts and one 4S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei80sMT8050

Technically, this one is the best by Takeshi in his entire career.
Look at the hight of his jumps. When he jumps, he springs 'up' and 'far' in the air. He was such a georgous jumper.

But after that year, his injured ankle bothered Takeshi, he never got back to complete-healthy-self again, and injuries eventually forced him to retire after 2005-6 season. Very sad...

Buttercup · Feb 28, 2012

deedee1 said:
Let me add one more program with 3 quads.
Takeshi Honda at 4CC 2003, where he did two 4Ts and one 4S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei80sMT8050

Technically, this one is the best by Takeshi in his entire career.

Very bad of me to overlook Mr. Honda... you know, someone should add this to his Wikipedia entry and to the one about the quad jump (the GS writeup can be used as the source!). I'm too lazy to do it

seniorita · Feb 28, 2012

^ wow the quads number in this competition. Thanx for the link. And this :eek:

>

Last year’s champion, Jeffrey Buttle of Canada, landed a quad/triple toe loop combination for the first time in competition in the short

mskater93 · Feb 28, 2012

Olympia said:
According to what I remember, and confirmed by Wiki, he retired and finished his undergrad education in math. According to the article in Wikipedia, he is aiming to become a technical specialist. Wouldn't that be a nice way for him to continue in skating? I never heard anything bad about Goebel; he seems to be a nice guy who would be an asset to any field he chooses.

He went to Columbia, got a degree in math and is working as an analyst in New York. He is a Sectional level TS according to the article he's mentioned in on IN

Bluebonnet · Feb 28, 2012

seniorita said:
^ wow the quads number in this competition. Thanx for the link. And this >

Last year’s champion, Jeffrey Buttle of Canada, landed a quad/triple toe loop combination for the first time in competition in the short

Click to expand...

Wow! Thank you for the link and the quote, Buttercup and seniorita! I never knew that Buttle has done any successful quad at a competition! Looks like he did:

Buttle's SP at 2003 4CC

Lysacek optimistic his issues with U.S. skating close to resolution

seniorita

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

deedee1

skateluvr

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

deedee1

skateluvr

Serious Business

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Olympia

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

gmyers

seniorita

skateluvr

Buttercup

deedee1

Buttercup

seniorita

mskater93

Bluebonnet

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