junior men - Short Program | Page 5 | Golden Skate

junior men - Short Program

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I don't see people proclaiming Brown to be the next Patrick Chan. That's not regarded a compliment by many and Brown has actually been proclaimed as better than Chan in some aspects or will soon surely be. I don't see people stating Brown is about to win international Senior medals though some have said he would have won this JW if only he had the 3A and his Senior success is extremely likely.

I am just a stickler for facts and well reasoned speculations and not one for twisted or wrong impressions stated conveniently as truth. I don't deny Brown is talented and has great potential. But wrong statements are made about someone else and premature announcements are made about Brown.

Chan is precocious and successful. He is admirable in how determined and fast he overcomes obstacles and improves himself. As such, he has not had long term struggles. His struggles are always exaggerated and ingrained in people's memories but they have not been "long term". He often resolves them within half a season. That's one of the factors of his amazing rise to the ever higher level in skating.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
SkateFiguring-people that admire Jason Brown are in many cases, those that admired Rohene Ward and Shawn Sawyer-they are not talking about who is going to win competitions. They are talking about who they enjoy watching and why.

They would like to hope Jason will get a consistent 3A. It may not happen. So they look for skaters who had at some times problems with a 3A, and they find:
Patrick Chan, who had no such thing as a good 3A=he had a 3A he could land well sometimes, but often fell on in competition, for whatever reason. And now he has a relatively consistent one.

Patrick is picked to compare to because HE WAS SUCCESSFUL AT OVERCOMING HIS PROBLEMS. And that is what those that admire Jason, hope for him. Do you think they want to cite Shawn Sawyer, a very interesting skater, who never did manage to have a consistent, well performed 3A, thus predicting failure at the outset?

No one is attacking Patrick Chan.

No one is saying Jason Brown will ever even be in an event where he will be competing with Patrick Chan.

No one is even saying Jason Brown will ever win or place top 3 at US Nationals.


They are just hoping he will succeed in going on a bit farther because they like his skating.

Why do they not talk about Han Yan or Jonathan Farris, who have 3A's, and probably a more assured future in skating?

Because they are not at this time mature performers, who use every beat of the music, and have interesting, quirky choreography, and who are memorable. And because, therefore, they are not at all interested in Han Yan or Farris.

Farris & Han Yan have at this moment not yet become memorable. And in fact, memorable skaters are a lot rarer than skaters with triple axels and quads. Can Farris & Han Yan become memorable? In fact, that is as a difficult a proposition is Brown getting his triple axel. Skaters that are memorable are pretty few and far between, and most of them were memorable from the first time you saw them.

Brian Boitano is a skater who became memorable later in his career, so the trick can be done. Of the two, I think Han Yan may, with the right choreography, become a memorable skater. I have less hopes for Farris.

But you see how this is? When you look at a skater that you like with a bar to leap, you look to see whether that bar has bothered some previous skater that has then overcome it successfully. With "memorable" this is tricky, because it is possible to win an Olympic Gold Medal without ever being a particularly memorable skater, or ever wanting to be a memorable skater. Witness Evan Lysacek.

That is not saying that Han Yan will win the Olympics like Brian Boitano, only that he may yet become a memorable skater.
Heeeey, slow down, Doris! Some of us are still hoping Jason will pull out the big jumps and be a contender at the senior level. He's only 17--we can hope!

Other than that, I second everything you said. Let's hear it for the memorable ones.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Well, I have my hopes for Jason. I had sworn never to get overly invested in junior skaters again, but the memorable ones pull me in every times. But I am not making any assertions about his future success. Just saying a few prayers that he stays healthy and learns his big jumps soon, and that let the future take care of itself.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I don't see people proclaiming Brown to be the next Patrick Chan. That's not regarded a compliment by many and Brown has actually been proclaimed as better than Chan in some aspects or will soon surely be. I don't see people stating Brown is about to win international Senior medals though some have said he would have won this JW if only he had the 3A and his Senior success is extremely likely.

I am just a stickler for facts and well reasoned speculations and not one for twisted or wrong impressions stated conveniently as truth. I don't deny Brown is talented and has great potential. But wrong statements are made about someone else and premature announcements are made about Brown.

Chan is precocious and successful. He is admirable in how determined and fast he overcomes obstacles and improves himself. As such, he has not had long term struggles. His struggles are always exaggerated and ingrained in people's memories but they have not been "long term". He often resolves them within half a season. That's one of the factors of his amazing rise to the ever higher level in skating.

I guess I'm confused then. What "premature announcements" are you referring to? I don't read every post on this board, so it's possible I missed it. The posts I've seen as of late (and my posts about him) have been more about Jason's potential and not an pronouncement that Brown is the future of figure skating.

Also, I think you misunderstand what I meant by long-term. I think people aren't saying his struggles are long-term but that when he solves the problem or conquers something it's usually settled in the long-term or long-run (as opposed to a band aid). Example: No quad. In just a few months he didn't only have the quad, but he had a solid, money jump one. My hope is that Jason Brown will not only conquer his 3A struggles but end up with a text book 3A that will garner lots of +GOE. I think that's what he is working toward.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
^^^ What I most question is calling Brown an all round skater or complete package at this point. He's almost all round for a Junior and hopefully will soon be. To be a Senior contender and considered a complete package, he not only needs at least a 3A but also improvement in skating skills and other components, both of which he is highly likely to acquire. He is young and has time. But he is not there yet. As for his excellent aspects, they tend to be more subjective and not absolutely overwhelming for every fan over his rivals.

My hope is that Jason Brown will not only conquer his 3A struggles but end up with a text book 3A that will garner lots of +GOE. I think that's what he is working toward.

I have a strong feeling you will not be disappointed.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I'm surprised that you think "complete package" is a compliment.

I don't ;)

It is what Dick & Peggy used to say of skaters whose technical content not quite first rate (but acceptable), or who tended to fall a lot, and whose artistry they were trying to convince the TV audience of. It was said of skaters like Sasha Cohen, who were very pretty, and had lovely extensions, but kind of crappy jump technique. Or Jill Trenary, same deal-when she was competing with Kristi Yamaguchi & Tonya Harding in 1989. Or Nancy Kerrigan.

Patrick is better than that. I hope that some day Jason will be better than "the whole package".
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I'm surprised that you think "complete package" is a compliment.

I don't ;)

It is what Dick & Peggy used to say of skaters whose technical content not quite first rate (but acceptable), or who tended to fall a lot, and whose artistry they were trying to convince the TV audience of. It was said of skaters like Sasha Cohen, who were very pretty, and had lovely extensions, but kind of crappy jump technique. Or Jill Trenary, same deal-when she was competing with Kristi Yamaguchi & Tonya Harding in 1989. Or Nancy Kerrigan.

Patrick is better than that. I hope that some day Jason will be better than "the whole package".

Good thing I don't listen to Dick and Peggy and American commentators in general. Saves me from :bang:.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
BTW, Evan Lysacek was always referred to as a "whole package" skater. Again, one can short of a six pack in the technical department (the quad)

They would also be selling Ashley Wagner as the whole package:
Pretty, with exaggerated claims of artistry
Two footed jumps (sometimes) Underrotated (sometimes) and flutzy (always)
And I don't particularly like her posture.

You see how this works.

Again, nothing one would ever say of Patrick these days.

So it looks like Canadians mean something different by whole package?
 
Last edited:

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
For me, the "complete package" applies to the all round best like Browning, Yagudin, Lambiel, Chan, Takahashi, et al. There are complete packages missing nerves/consistency such as Abbott and Sandhu. Some of my favorite skaters are great artists without the biggest jumps, like Sawyer, Beacom, Britten, etc. Some others may be even more beautiful to watch if they dumb down the technical contents further. They would made good show skaters but they don't get a chance without big medals. While I think Lysacek won his OGM fair and square, my problem with him is not about his on and off quad but lack of artistry and charisma. Kozuka and Oda are almost there, missing just a little to account for their relatively fewer wins.

On the Ladies side, you can't go wrong calling the likes of Kim and Assada complete packages.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
For me, the "complete package" applies to the all round best like Browning, Yagudin, Lambiel, Chan, Takahashi, et al. There are complete packages missing nerves/consistency such as Abbott and Sandhu. Some of my favorite skaters are great artists without the biggest jumps, like Sawyer, Beacom, Britten, etc. Some others may be even more beautiful to watch if they dumb down the technical contents further. They would made good show skaters but they don't get a chance without big medals. While I think Lysacek won his OGM fair and square, my problem with him is not about his on and off quad but lack of artistry and charisma. Kozuka and Oda are almost there, missing just a little to account for their relatively fewer wins.

There seems to be some that say Brown doesn't have a 3A so he's suddenly in the "great performers but have little chance of being a successful competitive skater in the future" category. And there are others who put him in the "complete package/all-around skater" category because despite the lack of 3A/quad he does seem to seem to have a solid handle on everything else (no UR/edge call triples besides the 3A, level 3/4 non-jump sequences, decent PCS).

My stance has always been is that he still has things to work on (including the 3A), but that he already shows an overall package that seems to have worked for him so far in his career and has yielded success as a junior-level skater. I think that is what most people are talking about.

Certainly if he wants to get to that "elite" or "platinum" all-around skater category that will bode success at the senior level (a la Takahashi, Chan and even Abbott), he will need a 3A/quad + further refinement.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I have not been interested in Juniors before but this year's crop is truly promising. I posted a few months ago Han Yan was my discovery this season. Farris is getting my attention too. (Brown is a can't miss with all the GS gushes.)

Of the future of these three, I would send them shopping. Yan needs a good choreography, while Farris should buy himself some personality and Brown technical prowess. Who do you think has the best chance of getting what he needs very quickly and easily?

Since they are all so young and talented, I have no doubt eventually they will all grow into the complete packages or nearly so

eta. I formed my impression of Farris watching his SP but after the LP, I wouldn't even call him dull. He has flair and just needs refinement and expression, like all young ones do.

etaa. I had wanted to write a story of three little princes going to the Wizard of Oz but couldn't come up with a good name for Farris. There lies his problem. No obvious and distinctive characteristics, physically or name and style wise.
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I have not been interested in Juniors before but this year's crop is truly promising. I posted a few months ago Han Yan was my discovery this season. Farris is getting my attention too. (Brown is a can't miss with all the GS gushes.)

Of the future of these three, I would send them shopping. Yan needs a good choreography, while Farris should buy himself some personality and Brown technical prowess. Who do you think has the best chance of getting what he needs very quickly and easily?

Since they are all so young and talented, I have no doubt eventually they will all grow into the complete packages or nearly so

eta. I formed my impression of Farris watching his SP but after the LP, I wouldn't even call him dull. He has flair and just needs refinement and expression, like all young ones do.

I guess Brown is striking to many GS posters because he does have that performance aspect down. Of course audience connect =/= successful competition. But I think many see him as one to watch because he does combine that performance ability with a solid — if not complete — arsenal of technical elements. And I think the fact he has that ability as a junior stands out given the canned programs most juniors have.

I think it has been harder for some to connect to Farris or Han because they don't necessarily have that same draw/personality or choreography that grabs you and says "I'm one to watch for!" It's a great achievement that both skaters have quads/3A and other technical abilities (such as SS for Han) at such a young age (especially considering most juniors don't have those elements), but for some reason it doesn't resonate the same way for some as being precocious in choreography/performance.

I think Yan getting choreography will depend on his federation being willing to spend the money for it. Given his GPF medal and JW win, I would say he has good chance on getting it. Now that his growth spurt/boot issues have settled down, Brown can focus more on the 3A. I would say the the challenge is greatest for Farris to get some personality because that's not as tangible an item to get as getting a 3A or some decent choreography. I'm not sure if you can teach "personality" per se, but maybe he'll be inspired by Chan and the other skaters.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Yan is one of those whose moves within the first seconds of a program impresses me with the quality of his skating, something I get from very few skaters, and never from a Junior. His immediate speed and his edges hit me right away. Though he needs to stroke, unlike Chan who generates speed from seemingly nowhere, Yan is very fast with ice coverage and huuuge jumps. There is a basic quality that permeates every aspect of his skating even though some of his arm movements and expressions could use quite a bit of improvement. That is a great foundation to build on. He is more like Chan that way too, but even more precocious but that is what I always say about someone raising the bar to become the standard for the next ones.

Both Yan and Farris seems to be shy young boys and a little maturity and seasoning will bring out their personalities and performance/expression I am sure. See Yan's ex program for artistry. Brown is hard working and determined so his 3A will come. Of course then quad will be demanded of him. :)


Bluebonnet said:
Mrs. P said:
...or even "Jason will someday beat Patrick Chan."
I can pinpoint exactly where this has been said. It was in 2012 US Nationals thread.

Yes, it was also said that Jason Brown made Abbott look like a novice. :eek:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
:scratch: For some reason, This is beginning to sound like a Wizard of Oz movie moment. I expect Han Yan, Farris & Brown to break out singing "If I Only Had a Brain/Heart/Nerve," but changing it up this way:

Han Yan
If I only had a show

Farris
a style

Brown
the jumps

So we're off to see the Wizard

etc
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
:scratch: For some reason, This is beginning to sound like a Wizard of Oz movie moment. I expect Han Yan, Farris & Brown to break out singing "If I Only Had a Brain/Heart/Nerve," but changing it up this way:

Han Yan
If I only had a show

Farris
a style

Brown
the jumps

So we're off to see the Wizard

etc

Wait, did you come up with this thought on your own or did your work off of SF's edited though from earlier?

etaa. I had wanted to write a story of three little princes going to the Wizard of Oz but couldn't come up with a good name for Farris. There lies his problem. No obvious and distinctive characteristics, physically or name and style wise.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
My own, but there's something about the 3 of them that just begs for Judy Garland to be skipping along beside them.

Obviously great minds troll in the same gutter here ;)

SF's problem is that the 3 guys in WoO are not princes, they are clowns; in fact, farm hands back in Kansas, and a Lion, Tin Woodman & Scarecrow in OZ.

Once you try to make the clowns princes, it gets harder to fit them into the story.

Farris is clearly the Scarecrow-what bugs me about his skating is that it lacks power and tension in many ways, kind of loose and floppy.

Han Yan gets to be the Tin Woodman, perhaps a little too rigid, not enough show to his show

Which leaves Brown to be the Lion, based on quirky, and not trying the hardest jumps (nerve).
 
Last edited:

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Lol. I don't know about Yan but Josh Farris is apparently rather shy and quiet and serious off the ice so I think in order for him to show more personality, he and his coaches/choreographers need to find music he really likes to skate to, and that will maybe bring out more passion and expression from his skating. The switch to Rachmaninoff from Transformers was a good move IMO, Josh had mentioned Rach No. 3 is one of his favorite pieces and the Transformers program really did not suit him well or really show off his strengths as a skater. He also seems to get nervous and a bit tense, he mentioned being very nervous at nationals and the commentator even said that he should try and relax and rely on his training more because he has all the skills he just needs to trust himself more. I think the result at JW should give him some good confidence going into next season. His 3a is already pretty consistent/solid, and it sounds like the 4t is close to competition ready, so in the off-season I assume he'll be working mostly on adding strength and expression to his skating and getting that 4t in his programs. We shall see, but from what I can tell, Krall and Allen are very nurturing coaches so I think they will help him in this aspect, and also training with Patrick Chan, who Josh has mentioned as being a good friend and inspiration. He's in good hands and seems to know what he needs to do to be competitive on the senior ranks. Confidence and personality on the ice generally come with age, lots of kids, especially boys, are kind of awkward and unsure of themselves at 17 (and Josh just turned 17 a couple months ago).

We'll see what happens at Worlds, but I think it's likely Han Yan will be China's number 1 man going into next season and I think the prestige that holds will get him more attention and likely access to better choreographers who can create better programs that play to his strengths as a skater. He is capable of handling complex choreography, he just needs programs where his speed, big jumps, and power can be showcased. He doesn't really have an artistic or lyrical style, but with the right choreographer and programs, he can still be really impressive with effective programs regardless.

As for Jason I don't think he needs to dump Kori as a coach, but maybe he should start working with someone else as well, I was thinking maybe a jump coach for the 3a and if he's going to try and start learning quads too than for that as well. He has the goods but he's the only top skater Kori has ever produced and I think some fresh influences in his training could really bring a new dimension to his skating that could make him even more unique. Plus a jump coach could help get that 3a hopefully quickly and maybe provide more strength to his overall skating, which would also really help make him stand out even more than he does already.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Oh and for the record I think Jason Brown has as much to work on as the other two medalists, and well actually more because he hasn't shown the 3a in competition yet. I agree that Jason already has a unique style, but I wouldn't say his style is more developed than the other two. I think because the top 3 are such different skaters, it's easy to say that Jason has the most developed artistry, but what I would really say is that he is just more of an extroverted performer. Han Yan is about big jumps and speed and power, he is somewhat similar to Brian Joubert, who was never really known for being "artistic" but earned top PCS marks because he had a distinct style that showcased his strength. That is what Yan needs, he doesn't need to work to become really flexible and skate to Sleeping Beauty, that is not the kind of skater he is. His choreography could be improved, but in the future, his choreography should serve the purpose of emphasizing his speed, strength, and athleticism, rather than trying to make him seem lyrical or elegant, which by nature he is not.

As for Farris if you compare his skating/programs this season to those he had last season with Tom Z, you'll see he made huge strides artistically already. He was able to do well on the JGP under Tom Z because he was a strong technical skater, but his PCS have improved leaps and bounds this season since switching to Krall and Allen. Under Tom Z, you could see Josh had the potential to be an elegant skater with his flexibility and stretch and long lines, but he was so focused on tech and his programs were just random and he didn't connect to them at all because the focus was just jump, jump, jump as a junior skater under Tom Z. In his Clair de Lune SP and the Rachmaninoff FS, Josh's flexibility, stretch, and long lines are used to his advantage to create programs with a refined, romantic style. Johnny Weir mentioned in his commentary at Nats how Josh's skating was very organic and made use of classic lines, wasn't flashy, no excess, and how he really liked his SP because his interpretation of Clair de Lune was very romantic and free. Josh had these qualities all along, but under Tom Z. they weren't being exploited because his programs were centered around the jumps. Now that his programs bring out the strengths in his skating, his PCS are so much higher and all of a sudden you realize this kid has the potential to be a really artistic, elegant skater. So I assume, as long as clever music and choreography choices continue to be made, this progression will only continue and the strength and confidence he will gain with age will also help.

Jason naturally has "it", but apart from the 3a, his skating needs refinement. His speed could be improved and more strength I think would help make his programs deliver even more of a punch. Because he is such a natural and unique performer, I'd like to see him experiment with different kinds of programs and see which he can pull off best. Johnny mentioned at Nationals how his FS this season was different from the fun programs we are used to seeing from Jason, it was a bit softer and more serious, but at the same time, it was very affective. Versatility will earn him respect in the eyes of the judges if he can do it well. Jason can sell a lot of different programs well, but through experimentation, we may find what style suits him best, and once that's discovered, he can really focus on building that style up and selling it to the audience.
 
Last edited:
Top