Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Should a World Champion Need a Triple Lutz?

pangtongfan

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Joined
Jun 16, 2010
If Miki freaking Ando has 2 World titles it would be a travesty if Kostner does not get atleast 1. She is a far superior skater to Ando.
 

pangtongfan

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Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Last year we had a champion without a flip, the year before a champion without a salchow, in 2009 a champion without a loop and the list goes on and on...why the problem presents only know with carolina who is not doing the lutz? It's ridicolous...There's much more than a jump in figure skating..

Kostner is just never given a fair shake by people. She hasnt been gifted a single of her wins this year (LOL at someone calling her the female Chan as far as judging, ridiculous), and in fact was majorly robbed of a victory at Skate America where she skated very well and lost to Czisny who had falls and major errors, and even lost the skating skills components mark to Czisny. However like Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze who were also never given a fair shake from fans, she got a "held up" rep sometime early in her career, and has never been able to shake it. This despite she is a skater who has never won a major title, was arguably unfairly held down in favor of someone like Lepisto at the 2009 Europeans and 2010 Worlds, and never achieves top results without performing very well (with the one possible exception of the 2008 Worlds).
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
if the field is shallow like it is now, no. this is why if caro skates clean or nearly clean, she will most likely win. if the field was deeper (miki, yuna, a stronger mao) then yes she would. there would be a much much smaller chance for her to even medal if that was the case. meaning if she plans to stay until sochi she needs to whip out some 3Lz's pretty quick because the little russians are coming to take over the skating world :biggrin:
 

macy

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2011
If Miki freaking Ando has 2 World titles it would be a travesty if Kostner does not get atleast 1. She is a far superior skater to Ando.

right?! miki may have some harder jumps but her second mark is horrible...i've never enjoyed her skating. its extremely boring and doesn't have any emotion. not very impressive.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Wagner flutzes, though she got a pass from the 4CC panel.
Czisny lips.
Asada flutzes.
Suzuki sometimes she gets edge calls, sometimes she does not.
Murakami flutzes.
Shelepen: full set!
Korobeynikova: full set!
Leonova: full set; sometimes gets edge calls.
Kostner: no lutz this season.

Here is my suggestion for meeting these problems in ladies’ skating.

The key is to follow consistently the rules for the toe loop and toe Walley. For purposes of scoring and for Zayak considerations, these two jumps count as variations of the same jump. The toe Walley is harder, being a counter-rotated jump like the Lutz, but does not carry a different base value. According to the present scoring system, the important defining characteristics are (a) toe-pick assisted and (b) landing on same foot. Inside edge and outside edge are regarded as variations within the same jump category.

So…

There are four different jump categories, excluding the Axel. Base values could be something like this (more or less the base values in the very first version of the CoP).

T. Toe-pick assisted, same foot landing. Includes the toe loop and the toe Walley; 4.0. (Scores for triple Axel and quads would be three times the base value for the jump of one less rotation).

S. Edge jump, opposite foot landing. Includes Salchow and (the near impossible) toeless Lutz; 4.5.

R. Edge jumps, same foot landing. Includes loop and Walley; 5.0.

Z. Toe-pick assisted, opposite foot landing. Includes flip and Lutz; 5.5.

In the Z category you could do an inside edge Z or an outside edge Z. Repeats are permitted in any of the following three cases. (a) The second occurrence has a different edge from the first, {b] one of the occurrences is in combination, or (extremely rare) (c) the second occurrence is in the opposite direct from the first.

A pure, distinct takeoff edge would be a positive feature for GOE, while a wobbly unclear edge would be a negative feature. Doing a different edge on the repeated occurrence would also be a positive GOE factor. (If necessary there could be greater rewards for a skater who does both, but I don’t think that would be necessary.)

So a solid ladies program might go like this

3Z+3T (triple Lutz or triple flip combo, positive GOE for solid definite edge)
3Z (same or different, positive GOE for different)
3R (triple loop)
3S (triple toeless Lutz, 4.5 points :) )
2A+3T (3.5+4.0 points)
2A

Or, program (b), replace the last two passes with

2A+2A seq
3R+2R (no three-jump combos, please)

This completes the six scored rotational jump passes. The seventh pass is the “choreography jump pass.” Split jumps, stag jumps, various kinds of hops and bounds strung together, base value 2.0 but with full opportunity for big GOE.

(That's my plan and I'm sticking to it. :biggrin: )
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
You got your toe loop/walley and flip/Lutz descriptions confused - the toe is a pick with one land on the other, the flip/Lutz is a pick with one, land on same. Toe is a weight shift group, flip/Lutz is a non-weight shift group.
 

Vicky458

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
I think a World Champion should be able to execute ALL the jumps. A World Champion should be "well rounded" in the sport of figure skating. A World Champion should demonstrate spins, footwork, sprials,jumps, edges in a well choreographed program. I still believe that "Figures" should be part of showing a skaters ability. Just my humble opinion
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Agree, except the Figures part seems impractical. The dominating hours which "world class" figures took would make having "all the jumps" as well near super human. If the World Champion in 2012 does not have a triple lutz, then it is more a reflection of the sport than what 'ought to be' IMO.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
OT but lutz is my least favorite jump, it looks unnatural rotating this way, even the junior jumping beans dont make me like it. Sorry mr Lutz.

Cop doesnt punish for what you dont do, it sums up what you do, so I dont know what people complain about.
Besides if you see Karolina's program live, especially this year, you forget she didnt do a lutz in the program, as you forgot Yuna was not doing a loop or whatever when you were seeing her live. ;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
OT but lutz is my least favorite jump, it looks unnatural rotating this way, even the junior jumping beans dont make me like it. Sorry mr Lutz.

I always get in trouble when I say things like this, but the problem with the Lutz is that it is not a ladies' jump.

That unnatural curving the wrong way looks totally cool if you have the upper body strength to establish the wrong-way curve and then snap! your body back around the other way, imposing your will on the law of conservation of angular momentum. ;)

Here are two examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ngQgDVwqP8 (3:05; one of the finest performances in the history of skating :) )

And here is another "man." :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbeq_M8Lgtg
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I like the Lutz. The counterrotation looks cool.

I think a World Champion should be able to execute ALL the jumps. A World Champion should be "well rounded" in the sport of figure skating. A World Champion should demonstrate spins, footwork, sprials,jumps, edges in a well choreographed program. I still believe that "Figures" should be part of showing a skaters ability.
I agree that ideally champion skaters will be able to do everything well. However, there will be times when no such skater(s) exist - and when that happens, I don't think there is one specific element that should be considered the price of admission if you want to be a champion (beyond the existing program requirements). The last few ladies to win were all missing jumps from their repertoire - and that includes the OGM; three men's world champions in a row did not land a rotated quad - and that also includes the OGM; S/S often struggle with syncing their spins. This does not necessarily make them unworthy champions IMO; if they were the best in the competition - and it doesn't matter which competition - then they deserved to win. Some more than others ;)
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
on the contrary, I have learned to appreciate Kostner over the years, I do agree she is
getting cleaner as the season progress even if she has no lutz compared to over her past meltdown records. not yet sure if she is ready to be crowned as the world's champion, but then again, its long overdue and this could be her last shot at wining worlds, Kostner is at her career peak.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
This thread begs the question if skaters should have to attempt each type of jump in their program (regardless of how many rotations), or else they receive a deduction. Can't do a Triple Lutz? Well you have to put a Double Lutz in the program.

Arguments can be made either way. I'm more on the the side of "NO, that shouldn't be a requirement" (variety is a good thing), but not 100% set in that opinion.

There should definitely be a bonus for properly executing all of the different types of jumps in a program, though.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I always get in trouble when I say things like this, but the problem with the Lutz is that it is not a ladies' jump.
Why? Does the angry ghost of Mr Lutz come in your sleep and asks for an explanation?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ The part where I get in trouble is when I say that men's skating and women's skating are different. To say that a triple Lutz is a manly man's sort of jump is certain to get the speaker into hot water. :)
 

loren

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 22, 2006
This thread begs the question if skaters should have to attempt each type of jump in their program (regardless of how many rotations), or else they receive a deduction. Can't do a Triple Lutz? Well you have to put a Double Lutz in the program.

Arguments can be made either way. I'm more on the the side of "NO, that shouldn't be a requirement" (variety is a good thing), but not 100% set in that opinion.

There should definitely be a bonus for properly executing all of the different types of jumps in a program, though.

This seems like very encouraging rule for skaters who are willing to take risks, and try harder jumps, however, ISU so far has not implemented this rule.
What can be the obstacle(s)?
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
^ I meant, for the toe loop, that you land on the same foot that you took off from, etc.
No, the toe loop lands on the OPPOSITE foot you picked with (which is the foot you took off from as the edge-riding foot leaves the ice before the toe picking foot), the flip and Lutz land on the same foot you picked with.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Agree, except the Figures part seems impractical. The dominating hours which "world class" figures took would make having "all the jumps" as well near super human. If the World Champion in 2012 does not have a triple lutz, then it is more a reflection of the sport than what 'ought to be' IMO.
Two words here: Midori Ito. She wasn't the most consistent skater of figures, but she DID have it all...
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
There are so many with a triple lutz who SO lack so much else. Seems limited question.
 
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