Gold at worlds: Virtue/Moir or Davis/White? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Gold at worlds: Virtue/Moir or Davis/White?

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
In head to head competition this season, D/W took one and V/M took the other. But if you look at the scores from both those competitions and consider others, D/W has a definite edge. They do have the highest scores in the SD and FD this season. And then there was their record-breaking PCS at Cup of Russia for the FD. Even at 4CC in the FD, where D/W were decidedly not at their best, D/W managed to outscore V/M on PCS. It's going to be close, barring mistakes or bad judging, but if I were a bettor the money would be on Davis/White.

Now, that's my prediction of how it'll turn out. My preference? Actually the same. Virtue/Moir is my favorite ice dancing team of all time, but I really don't like their current FD. On the other hand, Davis/White's SD and FD this season delight me. The FD, in particular, is a masterpiece. It's joyful and energetic, but still plays with the many nuances in the music. And perhaps most effective of all, it puts Charlie in the spotlight often. Charlie is possibly the greatest skater ever in terms of skating skills... blade and edge control and speed and power. Seeing him carve such forceful yet intricate patterns on the ice in Die Fledermaus while displaying total joy is one of the most wonderful sights in skating. Not to say that Meryl is a slouch at all. She keeps up with him and uses his power with ease. She's also a better performer. But when one half of your team is one of the wonders of the skating world, it never hurts to highlight him a lot. Another thing I love about Die Fledermaus is that it uses one piece of music. There are no jarring edits, no switching to some other piece. And yet the music is still more dynamic and more varied in rhythm than most other FD. It's whole and coherent without being monotonous. I want Davis/White to win Worlds just to validate the FD. To let other skaters and choreographers know that this is how great ice dancing programs can be.
 

heyhey

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
In head to head competition this season, D/W took one and V/M took the other. But if you look at the scores from both those competitions and consider others, D/W has a definite edge. They do have the highest scores in the SD and FD this season. And then there was their record-breaking PCS at Cup of Russia for the FD. Even at 4CC in the FD, where D/W were decidedly not at their best, D/W managed to outscore V/M on PCS. It's going to be close, barring mistakes or bad judging, but if I were a bettor the money would be on Davis/White.

Now, that's my prediction of how it'll turn out. My preference? Actually the same. Virtue/Moir is my favorite ice dancing team of all time, but I really don't like their current FD. On the other hand, Davis/White's SD and FD this season delight me. The FD, in particular, is a masterpiece. It's joyful and energetic, but still plays with the many nuances in the music. And perhaps most effective of all, it puts Charlie in the spotlight often. Charlie is possibly the greatest skater ever in terms of skating skills... blade and edge control and speed and power. Seeing him carve such forceful yet intricate patterns on the ice in Die Fledermaus while displaying total joy is one of the most wonderful sights in skating. Not to say that Meryl is a slouch at all. She keeps up with him and uses his power with ease. She's also a better performer. But when one half of your team is one of the wonders of the skating world, it never hurts to highlight him a lot. Another thing I love about Die Fledermaus is that it uses one piece of music. There are no jarring edits, no switching to some other piece. And yet the music is still more dynamic and more varied in rhythm than most other FD. It's whole and coherent without being monotonous. I want Davis/White to win Worlds just to validate the FD. To let other skaters and choreographers know that this is how great ice dancing programs can be.

Interesting post - While I agree with many others that D/W skate this program very well and may well win them Worlds this year - it will be because this music piece is popular and actually carries the FD and the choreography plays to D/W's strengths and hides their weakness'. In terms of D/W, the majority of this FD is recycled steps/spins etc from previous years - mind you masterfully blended in choreography and well executed but not innovative. This FD is not pushing boundaries. I'll be fine with D/W winning this year but I agree with others on this board that Samson and Delilah is D/W's strongest FD to date.

ETA: I think the SD will play a pivotal outcome in determining Worlds this year. It will be interesting to see how the judging will be for PCS at Worlds for the SD and where Cappellini and Lanotte fit since I think theirs is the strongest SD of the year if well performed. In addition, if P/B are not at Worlds, the Europeans will push for C/L...
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
i doubt the Europeans will push for C&L all that much-I expect to see Bobrova & Soloviev be the European choice for the podium to replace P&B. And my guess is that if P&B are not at Worlds, that Weaver & Poje will take the bronze, partially because I expect the audience in Nice to totally love their Je Suis Malade FD, and to not particularly take B&S's efforts for this year to their hearts, but most especially because W&P were the bronze medallists at 4CC's and in 4th place at GPF, and have been skating awesomely all year.

Now I like C&L a lot, and particularly their SD. However, C&L couldn't even beat I&K for third place at Europeans (They were 4th in the FD, and 4th overall.) And in the SD, they were in 6th place at Europeans (which was a shock to me, I must say). So perhaps next year.

Also, I fail to see why picking audience unfriendly music is a good thing. Frankly, I think picking such music shows a lack of sense in those that pick it, and I'd mark down for it rather than up. However, from a "who wins" point of view, COP only cares that if you are telling a story, that the story be easily understandable by the audience, and that the music has a well defined beat and that you skate to it.
 
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Ilvskating

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
You echo my worries! I don't want to participate in skating fandom by collecting and comparing lists of decimals. I do that for my taxes. I agree that the Mahler is the 2010 ice dance that will stay with me. But this year, there is one program that will endure in my emotions, and it's Davis and White's Die Fledermaus program. That's why, though these two teams are very close in terms of quality, I'm rooting for D/W this season at Worlds for the gold medal. Do not try to change my mind with decimals!

I totally agree, and I don't mind spell it out:)

I love V/M's olympic programs, especially the FD and OD. But D/W simply have better programs this year and I love their FD so much.

Apart from programs, I'm kind of anoyed by Scott's attitude. Even at the kiss and cry in olympic, when they know that they practically won after the FD, Scott's expression was not joy like most of the winners have, but kind of like contempt combined with anger " I beat you!" The GPF was a worse show of personality imo. Even during 4CC, it seemed Charlie was all out trying to be friendly but Scott just ignored him. On another occasion, during Skate Canada, all other skaters were very friendly to fans, signing autograph and taking pictures , Scott just lowered his head, not watching or acknoledging anybody and rushed to the car immediately. Somebody commented why would he care the fans, he's already very famous. It's ok, they don't have to do it, but doing it does seem to help the sport in some way.
I think Tessa is a very nice and sweet person. Win or loose, she stays graceful. I still love Scott on the ice, as a skater, but not much as a person.
I had no feeling about D/W before this season, especially Davis. There was no chemistry between them. Her starting pose is still bother me ( the Pouting/breathing right before they start), but other than that, she's really lovely this year. White is always charming, but sometimes he was a bit over exurberant imo. But in the FD this year, they are just perfect!

So to conclude, I predict D/W win if both teams get the same levels and skate clean, and I will be happy for them. Scott seems need soem opportunity to learn good sportmanship. I still think V/M are better ice dances but they don't have the right vehicles this year.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
Also, I fail to see why picking audience unfriendly music is a good thing.

No one said it was a good thing. They said it is easier to skate to, and it is.

Hopefully it will be different at Worlds, but at the moment, I don't see any in-depth character development in D/W's FD. Yes, I see that it is light and joyful, but D/W claimed that there was more to it than that. I distinctly remember Charlie saying that he's giving Meryl some "sarcastic smiles" and what not. Where is that happening, exactly? I don't see any of it. What I do see is too people racing around and being upbeat and happy, which is great, but they've done that lots of times before (see Charleston OD, Kalinka, etc.). If DF wasn't such a great piece of music, I'd be bored. However, because I love listening to DF, I would watch the program no matter what they're doing.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I distinctly remember Charlie saying that he's giving Meryl some "sarcastic smiles" and what not.

In a test skate Charlie only got a level two for his sarcastic smile, so they decided to replace it by a level 3 cheerful grin.
 

all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
In a test skate Charlie only got a level two for his sarcastic smile, so they decided to replace it by a level 3 cheerful grin.

I wouldn't be surprised. Charlie also gets level 4s for his butterfly leap. That's why he's included it in every FD he's skated as a senior.
 
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romanoff81

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
All i know is Scott Moir might go postal if he doesn`t get his way i dread the thought of what he might say if V&M finish second to their training mates he even said that in December at the gp final ``thought were are bitter know see us if were in the same position at worlds`` those were his exact words.
 

romanoff81

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Yes he said that in an article i distinctly remember that i can`t find the article but he did say it.
 

Ravensque

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
So what!!! Good for him. He's got a fighting spirit, being from a family of boys with competitive genes. :) Ah, Scott, a little testosterone in action :laugh: Nothin' wrong with that.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I totally agree, and I don't mind spell it out:)

I love V/M's olympic programs, especially the FD and OD. But D/W simply have better programs this year and I love their FD so much.

Apart from programs, I'm kind of anoyed by Scott's attitude. Even at the kiss and cry in olympic, when they know that they practically won after the FD, Scott's expression was not joy like most of the winners have, but kind of like contempt combined with anger " I beat you!" The GPF was a worse show of personality imo. Even during 4CC, it seemed Charlie was all out trying to be friendly but Scott just ignored him. On another occasion, during Skate Canada, all other skaters were very friendly to fans, signing autograph and taking pictures , Scott just lowered his head, not watching or acknoledging anybody and rushed to the car immediately. Somebody commented why would he care the fans, he's already very famous. It's ok, they don't have to do it, but doing it does seem to help the sport in some way.
I think Tessa is a very nice and sweet person. Win or loose, she stays graceful. I still love Scott on the ice, as a skater, but not much as a person.
I had no feeling about D/W before this season, especially Davis. There was no chemistry between them. Her starting pose is still bother me ( the Pouting/breathing right before they start), but other than that, she's really lovely this year. White is always charming, but sometimes he was a bit over exurberant imo. But in the FD this year, they are just perfect!

So to conclude, I predict D/W win if both teams get the same levels and skate clean, and I will be happy for them. Scott seems need soem opportunity to learn good sportmanship. I still think V/M are better ice dances but they don't have the right vehicles this year.

Scott does a lot of giving back to the sport. He was athlete rep for Western Ontario Section for a lot of years, and has been a great mentor to a lot of young boys in the sport for many years. He's funny, charming, and gregarious. The other side of a Type A personality is being opinionated, stubborn and not afraid to call things as he sees them. My take on the post GPF interview is that he was frustrated with the result. He seemed to be fine taking into consideration his own role in the fall in the SD, but like many of us, the idea that D/W would finish ahead of V/M on PCS in the FD was head-scratching. There does not seem to be a recognition on the part of the judges of the difference in complexity and quality in PCS between the teams. So he spoke his mind about it. He wears his heart on his sleeve. It's a little refreshing.

There has been some attitude changes. I believe they were talking around 4CC that they have changed their focus from results to skating for themselves. It seems to have worked at 4CC. That, and they examined and enhanced their programs in great detail after the GPF. They are still hungry. It's good. That's why I see them sticking this out to Sochi at least as long as they are both healthy.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
All i know is Scott Moir might go postal if he doesn`t get his way i dread the thought of what he might say if V&M finish second to their training mates he even said that in December at the gp final ``thought were are bitter know see us if were in the same position at worlds`` those were his exact words.

The CSA has tried hard to not only politik harder behind the scenes (reflective in things such as Chan's scores) but to promote homophobia, thrash talking, butch acting, griping about judging, and in your face attitude to its skaters. After the 2008 season all mens skaters that were viewed as either possibly gay or effiminate in anyway were pushed to retire, hence the number of surprise retirements that off season. This is reflected in the disturbing attitudes and behavior of Patrick Chan, Scott Moir, even people like the international journeywomen Cynthia Phaneuf and her sense of entitlement and moaning she should have been named to Worlds even after a poor season and losing Nationals (when she should have been gleeful for a skate off). The hilarious thing is the CSA is seeing their TV ratings and audience numbers lower and lower to the point of the sport becoming irrelevant in Canada despite their success, with their new "philosophy".
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
re: The European possibility.

I believe it's still Pechalat/Bourzat's to lose. If they do lose, it won't be to B/S or I/K, who can be counted on to make at least one major element-level error or several minor ones, but to W/P, who've seen their PCS skyrocket this season. At the very least, we'll see a skate from P/B like we saw at Skate America: skate to get the levels. The judges will give the GOES/PCS to do the rest (though I will say a minor key bronze like that would probably do more harm in the long run - a la Khoklova/Novitski). In a perfect world, C/L would definitely be in the hunt for the top five, but despite the two choreographic masterpieces they have this season, I just don't see it happening.

re: D/W vs V/M

If D/W do win, I hope it's on the strength of the SD. Yeah, they have the highest scoring FD of the season (thanks to a computer error, lets be fair), but they have the highest scoring SD ever (which is more remarkable when you remember the ceiling is lower this year), and I think V/M's SD has been changed way too often - it's just not a thrilling program like it was as a FD, a show dance, or even how it could potentially be without the massive changes we saw at Nationals/4CC.

re: Audience friendly music

I think skating well to challenging music is better than skating well to unchallenging music. Of course, what's challenging for one team might be a breeze for another. Things like cultural specificity certainly enter into the arena in complex ways. But at the same time, when we complain about warhorses, isn't that in part because "we" have deemed them (at least somewhat) easier to skate to? Carmen has been on the Olympic podium more often than not it seems (Nagasu was fourth in 2010, but 2006, 2002, 1998.... ). But the idea that someone should be marked down because they don't cater to the audience via music choice is absurd to me. Granted, watching I/K's "Ave Maria" makes me understand that it's not so absurd.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I wouldn't be surprised. Charlie also gets level 4s for his butterfly leap. That's why he's included it in every FD he's skated as a senior.

Not quite. It wasn't in last year's tango program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8LN0akCSAY

But it certainly is back in DF.

And IP, yes, I/K's music does come to my mind too. (V&M's FF isn't bad enough to make that cut for a proposed music penalty.) After all, we have music penalties for "not uplifting" (yes, we do, it's just hasn't been taken on anybody yet) and for "no strong beat"; I would love to see one for "makes you want to tear your ears off".

Bad cuts.
Screeching voices.

(Things easy to avoid when choosing music.)

DomShab's Aborigine OD comes to mind.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
The CSA has tried hard to not only politik harder behind the scenes (reflective in things such as Chan's scores) but to promote homophobia, thrash talking, butch acting, griping about judging, and in your face attitude to its skaters. After the 2008 season all mens skaters that were viewed as either possibly gay or effiminate in anyway were pushed to retire, hence the number of surprise retirements that off season. This is reflected in the disturbing attitudes and behavior of Patrick Chan, Scott Moir, even people like the international journeywomen Cynthia Phaneuf and her sense of entitlement and moaning she should have been named to Worlds even after a poor season and losing Nationals (when she should have been gleeful for a skate off). The hilarious thing is the CSA is seeing their TV ratings and audience numbers lower and lower to the point of the sport becoming irrelevant in Canada despite their success, with their new "philosophy".

Ouch pangtongfan. I have to say I don't like some of the comments from Chan, Moir and Joubert. I am not sure about politicking how skating federations can do that or how it works. My opinion, and it is just that, Chan and V and M are very good. I actually think though I like the personalities more of D and W; I do believe V and M are vastly underscored on PCS next to D and W. And while D and W are very good, no excellent they really aren't all that special other than one of the current top teams. A team like Torvill and Dean, Usova and Zhulin, Klimova and Pomanrenko or even G and G are rare and few. I would say there was more politicking for the Shibutanis tog et bronze last year than Chan's high PCS. Several teams could have been held up against S squared.
 

emdee

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Actually, PTfan is talking about the Canadian Standards Association an organization unrelated to skating. Maybe Scott/Patrick and Cynthia are cooperating on a new electrical invention? Ratings for the CSA are always high and likely to remain so as every company who makes toasters needs their services.
 
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