The state of U.S. Figure Skating

Mrs. P · Apr 1, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Why do we deserve to know the reason?

I don't think anybody on these board are entitled to a reason. That said it is human nature to question why a skater has done so terribly to epic proportions.

Though she should have said it much earlier and notified USFSA, at least Rachael did disclose her injury and people could say, "ah that's why." Alissa and Alissa's team have been quite mysterious about the general state of her skating. Again, we shouldn't feel entitled for this information, but it's natural for people to wonder.

R.D. · Apr 1, 2012

brightphoton said:
Again, you seem to believe Caroline would implode or something at a major international competition, because omggereazzzz it's the big one. Caroline has been to the Grand Prix final, threw down two bronzes at 4CC, and skates lights out at Nationals. No pressure at 4CC? Caroline knows her rep with the USFSA is at stake and she needs to prove she is at her old competitive form.

And you seriously think Wagner going from 1st to 4th is the same argument for "CAROLINE COULD HAVE ALSO FINISHED 22ND YOU DON'T KNOWWWWW"

Oh lord- it's not that I believe she WOULD implode with certainty- I'm simply pointing out to the folks that are claiming "If we sent Zhang, she would have finished 5th and we would have gotten the 3rd spot back" that you never know. Sure, that could have happened...but also, she could have stumbled as well (I remember her Skate America FS not being so great, for instance) and slipped to, say, 10th or 11th. And in terms of numbers, it would have made no difference at all. Wouldn't matter whether you finish 10th or 22nd, it wouldn't be good enough for 3 spots with Wagner's 4th. And we'd be having the same discussion now, anyway.

Oh yeah, 2010 is an excellent example. How much of a "done deal" was it that Nagasu and Flatt would come back with the 3 spots, especially after finishing 4th and 7th (respectively) at the Olympics? Even after the SP things looked promising, with Nagasu leading and Flatt mid-top 10. But of course, it all came apart and (at the time) who would have thought Nagasu would implode the way she did in that freeskate? She was one 2A away from BRONZE for crying out loud...

I remember saying that USFS should have probably waited until after 4CC to at least name the alternates to Worlds, if not the World team itself.

ivy · Apr 1, 2012

To me there is a certain amount of quid pro quo. If you want fans to support you, you have a responsibility to be honest about things that are impacting your performance. Our support of skating is what gives these athletes a career - it's a two way street. I don't need to know the details, but something

louisa05 · Apr 1, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Why do we deserve to know the reason?

Sports fans are an entitled lot. This same language comes around every year that our local college football team doesn't win a conference and national title. Fans wring their hands and say "we deserve better". Except that we don't. We're entitled to watch. Even if you attend games/events, your ticket does not guarantee that your team/favorite athlete will perform to your liking. It guarantees you a seat to watch whatever happens. And nothing entitles us to know the athletes' personal business. Alissa's meltdown may be related to something very personal to her, her family, or close friends.

On January 3, I was woke up to a phone call that a close relative had been killed in a head-on car crash. I turned on my computer a few hours later to let some friends know via email/FB messaging and found about twenty posts lamenting how people's lives were over and they were depressed and upset and having a bad day and deserved answers because the local college football team lost a bowl game the day before. I say to all of you what I said on my status that day:

If a lost game involving a team you don't play on (or in this case a bad competition by skaters who are not you) is the worst thing happening in your life right now, you are very blessed indeed.

Perspective, people!

R.D. · Apr 1, 2012

Sports fans are an entitled lot. This same language comes around every year that our local college football team doesn't win a conference and national title. Fans wring their hands and say "we deserve better". Except that we don't. We're entitled to watch. Even if you attend games/events, your ticket does not guarantee that your team/favorite athlete will perform to your liking. It guarantees you a seat to watch whatever happens. And nothing entitles us to know the athletes' personal business.

While I agree with this to a certain extent, also remember that the fans ARE financially supporting the team (at least in pro sports) through their purchase of tickets, merchandise, etc. While they may not be entitled to personal issues, if it's something that is directly affecting the performance of the team, the fans do have a voice- if they feel they've been lied to or deceived, they can always withdraw support. (Of course, in reality, that hardly ever happens- see NBA, NFL lockouts- but you get the point.)

Dragonlady · Apr 1, 2012

Maybe it's time to consider that at the current time, the US doesn't have singles skaters who are capable of earning 3 spots or successfully using the opportunities its has. Much was made of the three spots the men had last year and what did they do with them: 9th, 11th, and 13th.

Instead of blaming skaters for not getting back the three spots for ladies, maybe you need to look at the current US program to determine why your skaters are not currently competitive in singles. And I would start with: Making US Nationals your sole criteria for team selection forces skaters to peak at Nationals, instead of building your season towards Worlds. If only the Champion received their tickets issued at Nationals, there would be less pressure on that one event and skaters could focus on finishing out the season stronger.

And get better judging at Nationals. Stop ignoring flutzes and under-rotations at Nationals, and over-inflating PCS. Score the skaters the same as they would be scored internationally. This has been a long-standing issue with the USFSA even under 6.0.

Last but not least, it's time for the USFSA to start acting like a big-time sports federation and not a country-club volunteer group, and to provide some meaninful support to skaters. The Russian test skates, and the Canadian team camps do this for their skaters, including providing judging feedback from international level judges. Every competition in Canada is judged under CoP and has been since the introduction of the judging system. I think the USFSA is still holding low level competitions under 6.0 which is ridiculous.

Elite figure skating is a professional sport. It's time for the USFSA to become a professional sports federation and actually help their skaters succeed, beyond just giving them money.

R.D. · Apr 1, 2012

Making US Nationals your sole criteria for team selection forces skaters to peak at Nationals, instead of building your season towards Worlds. If only the Champion received their tickets issued at Nationals, there would be less pressure on that one event and skaters could focus on finishing out the season stronger.

...

Last but not least, it's time for the USFSA to start acting like a big-time sports federation and not a country-club volunteer group, and to provide some meaninful support to skaters.

THIS. ITA. Well said.

If this Worlds result doesn't make USFS wake up and smell the coffee, honestly, I don't know what will. Another medal drought in Sochi, perhaps? Because that is where we are headed.

drivingmissdaisy · Apr 1, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Why do we deserve to know the reason?

For me, if it was a reason that should have led to her withdrawal, she took away a spot from another (marginally) deserving skater. There's a tremendous cost to the skating community as well. It's hard to sell tickets to a US tour when your headlining acts aren't American. These tours help good skaters pay for coaching and ice time. At the end of the day I don't think any 2nd skater from the US would have gotten us 3 spots but I think it's at least fair to ask for an explanation if it pertains to an injury.

louisa05 · Apr 1, 2012

R.D. said:
While I agree with this to a certain extent, also remember that the fans ARE financially supporting the team (at least in pro sports) through their purchase of tickets, merchandise, etc. While they may not be entitled to personal issues, if it's something that is directly affecting the performance of the team, the fans do have a voice- if they feel they've been lied to or deceived, they can always withdraw support. (Of course, in reality, that hardly ever happens- see NBA, NFL lockouts- but you get the point.)

I don't think an athlete or team underperforming or just not being as good as the competition at any given point in time is a matter of deceit or dishonesty. It is just the nature of sports.

And "withdrawing support" if your favorite team or athlete isn't winning all the time...that's just being a fair weather fan to a degree. Of course, never mind that the majority of whining fans are not attending events so their claim to be paying the bills is rather suspect.

Your team doesn't have to win for you to support them if you are a true and lifelong fan. Ask my dad about that. He's the guy in the Cleveland Indians cap.

ivy · Apr 1, 2012

For instance if Allissa is dealing with some hard thing in some other part of her life - family, friends, whatever, I don't want to know what it is. But some info is better then nothing

R.D. · Apr 1, 2012

louisa05 said:
Of course, never mind that the majority of whining fans are not attending events so their claim to be paying the bills is rather suspect.

It's not just attending events- it's buying jerseys and other team-related merchandise, and watching the games on TV as well. A significant portion of income in professional sports is TV money. And the TV networks pay the leagues big $ to televise their sporting events because the networks get big ratings and a major promotional platform as a result. If the viewers are no longer there to watch the games, that money shrinks significantly or disappears altogether. (since we're on a figureskating board, ask USFS, I'm sure they'd agree)

Your team doesn't have to win for you to support them if you are a true and lifelong fan. Ask my dad about that. He's the guy in the Cleveland Indians cap.

This I agree with.

skfan · Apr 1, 2012

louisa05 said:
I don't think an athlete or team underperforming or just not being as good as the competition at any given point in time is a matter of deceit or dishonesty. It is just the nature of sports.

And "withdrawing support" if your favorite team or athlete isn't winning all the time...that's just being a fair weather fan to a degree. Of course, never mind that the majority of whining fans are not attending events so their claim to be paying the bills is rather suspect.

Your team doesn't have to win for you to support them if you are a true and lifelong fan. Ask my dad about that. He's the guy in the Cleveland Indians cap.

so czisny owes nothing to anybody? not even the other skater whose spot she undeservingly was handed, not even to ashley wagner to carry part of the load at worlds? not even the usfsa who gave her the spot she didn't deserve and however many funding dollars she got? yeah, we know she pays the bulk of it but they pay some. and all those other ladies who participate also fund themselves largely with minimal help from the usfsa, are they similarly allowed to say, never mind any rules, never mind what happens to the u.s. skating team, this is my spot and i can do anything i want with it?

why was flatt not given the same benefit of the doubt? let's see when hersh will write his article demanding investigation into injury concealment.

i am loyal to my team. my team is the u.s. figure skating team, not alissa czisny. i am a fan of the philadelphia eagles, not a fan of T.O., or michael vick. all the czisny defenders sound like peyton manning fans still crying in their beers, and for god's sake manning actually WON a world championship for the colts. what exactly has czisny contributed to u.s. figure skating that merits this much coddling?

all those claiming she doesn't owe anybody an explanation, i disagree with you. she doesn't owe anybody an explanation if she withdraws in time for somebody else to show up, but if she takes the spot and especially if she clearly squanders it, she does need to face the music. she was given a privilege that only 2 ladies from the US can be given--what happened to, to whom much is given, much is expected? of course to czisny fans it's nothing, it's just a spot at worlds, the u.s. girls 'don't need' it, 'don't deserve' it. but czisny mysteriously does no matter how she skates. again, rules apply to flatt, but not to czisny? just how many pretty points does a skater need to skirt around the usfsa?

brightphoton · Apr 1, 2012

R.D. said:
Oh lord- it's not that I believe she WOULD implode with certainty- I'm simply pointing out to the folks that are claiming "If we sent Zhang, she would have finished 5th and we would have gotten the 3rd spot back" that you never know. Sure, that could have happened...but also, she could have stumbled as well (I remember her Skate America FS not being so great, for instance) and slipped to, say, 10th or 11th. And in terms of numbers, it would have made no difference at all. Wouldn't matter whether you finish 10th or 22nd, it wouldn't be good enough for 3 spots with Wagner's 4th. And we'd be having the same discussion now, anyway.

Oh yeah, 2010 is an excellent example. How much of a "done deal" was it that Nagasu and Flatt would come back with the 3 spots, especially after finishing 4th and 7th (respectively) at the Olympics? Even after the SP things looked promising, with Nagasu leading and Flatt mid-top 10. But of course, it all came apart and (at the time) who would have thought Nagasu would implode the way she did in that freeskate? She was one 2A away from BRONZE for crying out loud...

I remember saying that USFS should have probably waited until after 4CC to at least name the alternates to Worlds, if not the World team itself.

What a hypocrite you are. Your standards for Czisny being on the world team is to do your best, skate nice, doesn't matter what you score, you deserve to be there - even though you were held up at Nationals - you earned your spot.

Your standards for Caroline is getting 3 spots back or you don't deserve your spot on the world team!

skfan said:
all the czisny defenders sound like peyton manning fans still crying in their beers, and for god's sake manning actually WON a world championship for the colts.

skfan said:
what exactly has czisny contributed to u.s. figure skating that merits this much coddling?

I think it's because Czisny is "the pretty one."

mhu714 · Apr 1, 2012

It's true the US is by far the best they've ever been on Dance, but the other disciplines have been in the tank for years, and the USFSA has to be held accountable. I find it incredibly sad that we can't get on the ladies podium, even in a watered down world the past few yrs. Sure Kostner is lovely, has great speed yada yada yada, but it's incredible someone can win worlds without even trying a lutz, and she can barely land a triple flip. This is the worst the US has been in ladies for more than 60 yrs! I'm not sure if it's a coincidence but things started getting bad once we moved to the new scoring system. Of course that's also when MK retired. In the old days (and I only mean 10 yrs ago) skaters like Nagasu, Zhang, Flatt, etc would have stepped up and competed for medals not skated like a bunch of head cases who can't ever do 2 clean programs.

R.D. · Apr 1, 2012

What a hypocrite you are. Your standards for Czisny being on the world team is to do your best, skate nice, doesn't matter what you score, you deserve to be there - even though you were held up at Nationals - you earned your spot.

Your standards for Caroline is getting 3 spots back or you don't deserve your spot on the world team!

Well, I have to hand it to you...you are certainly skilled at putting words in others' mouths.

skfan · Apr 1, 2012

R.D. said:
Well, I have to hand it to you...you are certainly skilled at putting words in others' mouths.

reads the same to me as it does to bright photon.

Jtsmith12 · Apr 1, 2012

Can someone tell me why Rachael didn't get the benefit last year but it seems like Alissa does ? Rachael with an injury placed 11th and people really ripped her a new one, now Alissa places 22nd ( because of reasons unknown to us ) and people don't seem half as angry.. Why the double standard ?

aftertherain · Apr 1, 2012

mhu714 said:
Of course that's also when MK retired. In the old days (and I only mean 10 yrs ago) skaters like Nagasu, Zhang, Flatt, etc would have stepped up and competed for medals not skated like a bunch of head cases who can't ever do 2 clean programs.

As much as I love MK, people tend to forget that Sasha Cohen delivered most of the time as well.

You know, a lot of people gave Sasha so much heat because she was pretty much incapable of doing two clean programs in a row (which, most of the time, cost her the gold). In terms of inconsistency though, she's got nothing on these U.S. women today.

brightphoton · Apr 1, 2012

Pfft. Why not? Your argument for keeping Caroline Zhang off the world team is that maybe she would place 9th or better, but maaaaaybe not and if she didn't get at least 9th place, the US would still not have 3 spots. Ergo, Zhang doesn't deserve a World's berth.

On the other hand, this standard doesn't apply to Czisny. She should be on the team because she was held up at Nationals and got silver. What results she produces, even a 3rd from last place, is irrelevant.

aftertherain · Apr 1, 2012

Jtsmith12 said:
Can someone tell me why Rachael didn't get the benefit last year but it seems like Alissa does ? Rachael with an injury placed 11th and people really ripped her a new one, now Alissa places 22nd ( because of reasons unknown to us ) and people don't seem half as angry.. Why the double standard ?

Frank Carroll questioned Rachael's ability to compete. Of course, that was when Mirai lost out on a spot on the World team to Rachael. Now that Mirai actually bombed on her own at Nationals, Frank Carroll is probably not questioning it since it wouldn't do any good for his skater.

This is probably how it happened: RF gets 12th at Worlds --> Frank Carroll --> Phil Hersh --> Everyone else --> USFSA => whole chain of anger and confusion

Now: Alissa gets 22nd --> that's just sad --> speculation

The state of U.S. Figure Skating

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

R.D.

ivy

louisa05

R.D.

Dragonlady

R.D.

drivingmissdaisy

louisa05

ivy

R.D.

skfan

brightphoton

mhu714

R.D.

skfan

Jtsmith12

aftertherain

brightphoton

aftertherain

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