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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
This Chris guy, before Patrick's score came out, he said Patrick might just get away with it(the gold). After seeing the score, he changed his tune to "Takahashi surely deserved the gold".

He wasn't saying that Chan would deserve to win the Gold, only that he might from THIS panel of judges based upon his lead in the SP (which he didn't feel was deserved in the first place...and it wasn't). However, after Chan won the LP when he clearly should have been only 3rd, that's where the huge outrage comes in. He could take Chan undeservedly winning the competition if the other guys were at least marked correctly in the LP for their amazing performances, but that didn't even happen.

Also, the first time he said Chan "might just get away with it", it was in reference to beating Hanyu. He was stating that Hanyu so far surpassed Chan in the LP that it was uncertain if Chan's SP lead would even keep him above Hanyu. These are thoughts someone should be having if the competition were being judged accurately, but of course that's never how it works with Chan. He has been painted as the "CoP master, best skater in the World" and thus judges give him the best scores even when his performances are inferior because they aren't capable of judging correctly and are afraid of being punished by the ISU.

My opinion: Patrick's LP might be overscored, but not much. He still deserves the gold especially considering Dai didn't get the one point deduction for his fall in SP and Hanyu only got one point deduction for his fall in steps but not GOE deduction.

Hanyu didn't fall on a step sequence. He fell just going inbetween elements on stroking. As for the one-point deduction in the SP, Dai's jump was incorrectly called as << rather than <. If it had been called correctly, with the one point deduction (which is not a black-and-white call and is actually questionable, but I'll be safe and say it was deserved) but also only a <, he would have been ahead on points. Thus, Takahashi was underscored in that segment of the competition.
 

doctor2014

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Yea that true. Is it possible that he go higher PCS because Javier and the others kinda choked?... If he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas. It was actually kinda surprising to see his PC's higher than at gpf where hehad no disruptions.
In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.

With that said, I still agree with you that “if he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas.” Kozuka has such amazing skating skills and has been lowballed for such a long time. Ever since the introduction of COP, has ISU ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS? If Plushenko or Yagudin is 17 y.o. now and is representing Japan, then they would be lowballed too. I’d say had Kozuka emigrated to some European country, say Finland or Italy, then he would have scored 83 or 85 on PCS several years ago.
 

Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.

With that said, I still agree with you that “if he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas.” Kozuka has such amazing skating skills and has been lowballed for such a long time. Ever since the introduction of COP, has ISU ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS? If Plushenko or Yagudin is 17 y.o. now and is representing Japan, then they would be lowballed too. I’d say had Kozuka emigrated to some European country, say Finland or Italy, then he would have scored 83 or 85 on PCS several years ago.

Yea - this year. Daisuke's PCs was 85 something, and Yuzuru 83 something (this is from the top of my head). *Nvm, I missed the key word *consistently* :p

I thought Yuzuru deserved bronze at GPF too. Even tho he skated lights out at World's, his performance at GPF was what sealed the deal - I loved how he fought for every single minute of his program.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
:rofl:

His "own error" wasn't penalized on an element. Had that happened on an element, his TES would have dropped like a rock and certainly behind Chan and Takahashi's, even if it was just a spin.

Let's say I am batting a rival of Hanyu, I can tell you I am not terribly concerned about his potential, not as far as Sochi is concerned. I am being honest. I think Sochi will not be a coronation of anybody, including Patrick Chan. There are other men whom I see as greater competitors than Hanyu. Plus, the fact that Japan has such a competitive national that you better believe there are least 4 men who can legitimately lay claim on a spot for the Olympic team. If they all skate to their potential, it's hard to say who will necessarily on that team and who won't. Two years is a long time; with Team Japan, I doubt anyone has a secured spot on that team now so it's hard for me to lose sleep over a hypothetical rival who isn't even sure to make it to Sochi yet, no offense intended. You remind me of those people who ridiculed my impression on Elena ILINYKH / Nikita KATSALAPOV two years ago. I pretty much said the same thing about them, then a group of Russian fans smacked me because I was "afraid". Well, well, they are still the #2 Russian team and a long, long, long way from being able to challenge for the podium. They are lucky if they can overtake the #2 Canadian team by the time of Sochi, let alone challenging Gold. I am rarely ever wrong in my assessment, you can search my prediction record here in the last two years, I trust you will find them frightenly accurate.

I don't know how I/K Hanyu compare. the only comparision is they all had Jr World titles two years ago. Since then Hanyu has improved tremendously and got some serious results at the international stage, while I/K have progressed at a much lesser rate.

Everyone can be out two years from now look at D/L world champions off the podium in Vancover. Davis White (6 lower than I/k was this year) 2nd, two years later.

But the Japanese fed isn't that hard to predict. Do you really think they are going to go with just who performs well that day. :lol: No they are going to go with who delivers the most consistently for them. A lot of us predicted that the Japanese fed was going to drop Oda in favor of Hanyu after Oda's failure to deliver at Worlds once again... Hanyu is far more consistent than Kozuka and Oda are, and is frankly a better competitor than Daisuke OR Chan was at their ages. He also by far has the most consistent quad of the Japanese men.

Hanyu's Japan's clear no 2 now, and if anything the Japanese fed may be lookiing at his quad and thinking that Hanyu may very well be their no 1 by Sochi...

In fact I'd argue that Hanyu having to skate for Japan is the best thing for him. If he skated for any other country he'd be fawned over and coddled as the Great Hope in an inch of his life. He was amazing 2 year ago at Jr Worlds. But because he competes for Japan its taught him how to be a strong competitor, and work on his weakness... Because he has too. Daisuke is clear that Hanyu's presence challenges him too...

This is kid lands quad toe triple axel sequences in practice. he's a phenom of Plushenko proportions.

The only thing that may hurt him in Sochi is the Japanese fed not wanting him to have Gold, so that they can keep him for four more years.
 
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Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
^

ITA. The JFS sent Miki Ando to the Olympics even tho she finished off the podium in Nationals.

I would say Kozuka is still Japan's #2 based on previous National and International results. But not for long, by next season, if Hanyu continues to improve at the same rate, he will clearly be Japan's #2. At the Nationals, I think Hanyu was lowballed - it was quite evident they wanted to maintain the status quo, and used PCs to deny Hanyu from placing higher than 3rd. This is just my take of the event.

You have to be strong to compete for Japan, there are so many talented skaters in the country :biggrin: I bet those two guys who placed 4th and 5th at the Japanese Nationals could've placed in the Top 15 at World's this year, and I am not even kidding.

I don't mind if Yuzuru doesn't win Gold at Sochi (he will ony be 19 then), because he will stay in the sport for 4 more years and become a legend, much like Plushenko =D And win some world titles along the way, of course. But Yuzuru said he wants to compete in AT LEAST two Olympics, so even if he wins Gold in Sochi, he will keep going.
 
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bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
^

ITA. The JFS sent Miki Ando to the Olympics even tho she finished off the podium in Nationals.

I would say Kozuka is still Japan's #2 based on previous National and International results. But not for long, by next season, if Hanyu continues to improve at the same rate, he will clearly be Japan's #2. At the Nationals, I think Hanyu was lowballed - it was quite evident they wanted to maintain the status quo, and used PCs to deny Hanyu from placing higher than 3rd. This is just my take of the event.

You have to be strong to compete for Japan, there are so many talented skaters in the country :biggrin: I bet those two guys who placed 4th and 5th at the Japanese Nationals could've placed in the Top 15 at World's this year, and I am not even kidding.

Yes but Kozuka's implosion has to be getting the Japanese fed thinking. Plus I hate to say this because I love kozuka but Hanyu has a better connection with the audience. Technically Hanyu probably already is their strongest, and I'm sure they are seeing it. Although as mentioned they may not want their big bright talent to retire at 19 ala Kulik.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.

Fernandez was given the GPF bronze because he was "robbed" at Cup of Russia. That is my guess. Actually I think Takahashi was the most overmarked at GPF. His 4T in the SP should be downgraded and the 4T in the FS was also questionable. Takahashi seems to be undermarked in the PCS in Nice. That's just an impression comes from past patterns. Probably the judges "relocated" some of Takahashi's PCS asset to Hanyu. Hanyu's PCS was unexpectedly high considering a fall and not skating in the final flight. We can see the judges are finally dumping Takahashi on behalf of Hanyu. Takahashi's best effort can't beat not only Chan with 2 falls but also Hanyu with 1 fall. Everyone (maybe except some Canadians) wants Chan's genuine rival. Hanyu was designated as the #1 candidate. I expect Hanyu's PCS will surpass Takahashi in the next season. And he will introduce the 4S in both programs.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
In the GPF men LP thread, some people, including myself, posted that Hanyu was undermarked on PCS, while Javier was overmarked. Hanyu deserved to win bronze in GPF because he had higher TES and much better skating skills than Javier, but Hanyu wuzrobbed. Good that the judges were right at the Worlds.

With that said, I still agree with you that “if he doesn't keep landing his jumps I think his PCS will go down like Kozukas.” Kozuka has such amazing skating skills and has been lowballed for such a long time. Ever since the introduction of COP, has ISU ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS? If Plushenko or Yagudin is 17 y.o. now and is representing Japan, then they would be lowballed too. I’d say had Kozuka emigrated to some European country, say Finland or Italy, then he would have scored 83 or 85 on PCS several years ago.

80+ (8's and higher)

Chinese pairs (64+ is the correlation)
Russian pairs (V/T and K/S can score above 64)
American dancers (D/W and B/A were scoring above 48)

I actually think Hanyu was treated very generously, PCS wise.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I may be reading some posts wrong but I do sense more than anger, frustration about the system, judging or sadly skaters - but lets not make this personal.
Exactly, this goes both ways. It is hard to express frustration or anger about Chan's high presentation scores (PE, CH, IN) without mentioning Chan's name. It doesn't mean we hate Chan the skater. I hope Chan fans would not take it personal and label every critic as Chan-haters.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Hanyu interview

What he says for a 17 year old is all kinds of awesome
sort of g translation.

Yuzuru Hanyu has bigger dream than Gold medal
Yuzuru Hanyu's aim is not to become just an ordinary champion.

"Of course I aim to become a world champion. But not one-time champion. I want to keep winning. - Hanyu said. "Moreover, I want to become a skater who can completely outdistance the rivals. Because I've been looking up to Evgeni Plushenko for a long time."

Yes, his role model is three-time World champion, seven-time European champion, medalist at three consecutive Olympic Games, "the champion who keeps winning" Evegeni Plushenko.

In fact, Plushenko also recognizes Hanyu. When they meet at ice shows, Plushenko always said to him, "Overcome me", "Beat me".

So, 17 years old is not too early to win a medal at the World championships if his role model is Plushenko. This bronze medal is a starting point for his goal of becoming "the champion who keeps winning".
 

Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Yes but Kozuka's implosion has to be getting the Japanese fed thinking. Plus I hate to say this because I love kozuka but Hanyu has a better connection with the audience. Technically Hanyu probably already is their strongest, and I'm sure they are seeing it. Although as mentioned they may not want their big bright talent to retire at 19 ala Kulik.

Oda had a even bigger implosion in 2010 at Worlds - he didn't even make the LP! But he still won a trip to World's the next year.

Yes, I agree Hanyu has a very good connection with the audience. I think it has to do with their personalities - Hanyu is such an energetic, cheerful teenager (although very mature, and well-spoken for his age) and Kozuka is rather shy and timid.

Hanyu is the most technically consistent Japanese skater. And he will not retire at 19, he wants to be like Plushenko :)
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
SkateFiguring said:
There is (an absolute floor that says, sorry that element was not successful.) The tech panel calls how many rotations are actually done…

SkateFiguring said:
…even without the 2A, he has had more rotations in the air than most

That is the part that I would like to see brought into better balance. To me it seems like the tail is wagging the dog. IMHO failing to rotate in the air is not nearly so bad, in the full context of a skating program, as failing to stay on your feet. (JMO.)

WallyLutz said:
In the case of Chan's botched 2A, he got exactly what you proposed: Fall = 0 points.

As I said in my post, this is just as it should be. This is one call that the CoP got right. I wish that the judging system were less forgiving of falls in other situations as well.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Eh, he was behind the music far before the fall, wasn't he?

Yes, he was indeed behind the music pretty much in the first minute and half of his skate onward. But didn't skatinginbc say she have ears for music and rhythms, how come she failed to notice that, it was very obvious to anyone who had seen this LP before.
 

doctor2014

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
I would say Kozuka is still Japan's #2 based on previous National and International results. But not for long, by next season, if Hanyu continues to improve at the same rate, he will clearly be Japan's #2. At the Nationals, I think Hanyu was lowballed - it was quite evident they wanted to maintain the status quo, and used PCs to deny Hanyu from placing higher than 3rd.
This is so true! All men and ladies got a PCS boost at the Japanese Nationals compared to their PCSs at international competitions. Hanyu was the only exception, and he received lower PCS at the Japanese Nationals than at international competitions e.g. Worlds and even GPF.

Fernandez was given the GPF bronze because he was "robbed" at Cup of Russia. That is my guess.
But the thing is that Javier outscored Hanyu on PCS even in COR. If you take a look at their scores in COR,

SP_____TES__PCS:
Javier: 40.11 38.39
Hanyu: 45.20 37.58

LP_____TES__PCS:
Javier: 81.77 81.36
Hanyu: 82.50 78.38

In COR, Javier had a 3.79-point margin over Hanyu on PCS, yet Hanyu obviously had much better skating skills. How could someone think that Javier “wuzrobbed”? In fact, Hanyu beat Javier in TES almost every time (COR, GPF, and Worlds). Javier was able to get onto the GPF podium just because the judges gave him an even larger 5.12-point margin on PCS over Hanyu…

Chinese pairs (64+ is the correlation)
Russian pairs (V/T and K/S can score above 64)
American dancers (D/W and B/A were scoring above 48)
I don’t know much about PCS in pairs and ice dance since I don’t follow them too much. I’m talking about PCS in men’s field. I can’t think of any example that ISU has ever allowed one single country to have more than one skater to consistently score 80+ on PCS.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Yes, but he lagged further behind the music as a result of the fall.

eh...yes, thanks for stating the obvious. He lost about 4 seconds due to the fall, surely, that will add more delays, hence the eventual time violation. How do you know judges have not taken this into consideration? Did you see Chan getting 10s or close to 10s for any of those components? Fact is, Chan have consistently beaten Takahashi in their head to head competition this season on PCS. Why is this a surprise? It seems pretty clear the vast majority of judges feel that, everything else being equal, Chan wins, including PCS. Sure, Chan fell once and had a little wobble on his landing of the 3Lz but Takahashi had even more wobbles in his jumps, hence the much lower overall GOE. It's hard to argue his skate was truly clean when two of his elements received negative GOE. So if Chan starts out a higher base value for the PCS, minus his errors, Takahashi's would also receive minus for his wobbles, making both of them imperfect and thus, Chan still wins. Takahashi can't even beat Hanyu in the LP, that's quite telling on its own.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I dont like the reuters article posted here about the booing. It serves no good to the sport, and it is bad written. The journalist seems biased anyway.
And 200% against booing while athletes on the ice, it is not their business the marks, boo the judges, you know their hotel. Or it would be cool if they are announced after the competition and not at the start:laugh:
On the other hand I dont mind the booing to Ciquanta. :biggrin: I dont know why he keeps coming, I ve been to so many comps, he either partly booed or dead silence/ not applause when he is announced. :p
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Yes, he was indeed behind the music pretty much in the first minute and half of his skate onward...it was very obvious to anyone...
How can that kind of performance deserve 9.0s in presentation when his executed choreography doesn't match the music? It was obvious to everyone, so it must be obvious to the judges as well. Are you implying the judges chose to ignore it because they judged based on who was skating rather than what they were seeing?
 
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