Men's PCS at Worlds. | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Men's PCS at Worlds.

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
^ To me the question is not deductions for his mistakes. It is, how well did he interpret the music, according to the ISUs criteria for that component. In this performance (setting aside what we all know he is capable of), I do not see how his performance warranted 9.00 to 9.50 almost across the board. It seemed like he was fighting the music most of the way.

I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.

Actually he was NOT behind the music until the 2nd 3Lz. He waited a bit longer to do the jump that all the troubles began.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Actually he was NOT behind the music until the 2nd 3Lz. He waited a bit longer to do the jump that all the troubles began.

True. That was about a minute left till the end. Before that jump, he was on time. Even with the little delay in movement, I think his final sequance was still looking good with the music.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't know... For a 10 I want Baryshnikov. Or at least Torvill and Dean. :yes:
 
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emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.

I have to say that I largely agree with you - I love as in over the top really truly love Dai's LP; and I completely enjoyed it at Worlds (via internet); but I felt immediately that he had 'lacked' something in it - stripped it or perhaps didn't hit his step levels...something. I have not yet rewatched, but based on my memory this sounds accurate to me regarding Dai's performance. I agree with most of what you said about Patrick, but I do think that missing the sequence and being behind the music by then or then really impacted my overall impression of his interpretation. I agree he was really great before that - but I have to say that i really, really reacted negatively to his marks...I could really see Dai and Chan tied on this mark.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups.

I disagree. Although Daisuke was quite hesitant prior to the 4T (and it showed), the rest of Daisuke's jumps and their set-ups are generally very well-integrated and in-sync with the music. For some examples, I'm thinking of:

-the 3F: the repeated circular turns immediately prior to the final 3F reflect the repeated B-notes in the climax up to the final choreo step sequence
-the 3A-3T: the set-up to the jump mirrors the build-up in the intensity of the music, and Daisuke hits both the 3A and 3T (presumably the climax of the element) exactly on beat with the two F-sharp notes (the climax of that particular phrase of music)
-the 3Lo: in the set-up to the jump, Daisuke does that bit of arm choreography, raises his leg, and glances at the judges to the notes of the acciaccatura (or is it a mordent? I can never remember what those are called), and then almost immediately goes into the 3Lo right on beat (he lands exactly on the G note), then does those quick small steps as a transition out of the jump (not sure what they're called) exactly to the beat of the quick B-D-B-E-Fsharp notes

I have also been trained in music for many years (in piano, similar to skatinginbc) and it seems pretty obvious to me how Daisuke's jumps and their set-ups are in sync with his music. If I have more time, I can do a more extensive and complete write-up/analysis if anyone is interested.
 
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Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Does anyone think Patrick's new ex number deserves a 10 for IN? I feel he is the one that plays the piano when I watch the program.
 

skateflower

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
I re-watched both Chan and Takahashi's LP yesterday. Initially I thought Takahashi has the performance of the night, although there was something off about it that I couldn't put my finger on, and then I realized that this was NOT the program I fell in love with in Mississauga. There are stretches of the music that Takahashi skates right through, and his choreography lacks the note for note interrpretation of the music which Chan's does have. In Mississauga, Takahashi became the music, and it pulled him and turned him throughout. Yes he had mistakes, as did Chan, but it was difficult choreography perfectly suited to the music. Much of this had been stripped out. He didn't use levels whereas Patrick used all levels.

Patrick's program has so many more details than Takahashi's. Better use of the arms, every finger in place. The music flows through him to the ice. Even his stroking is in time to the music as he sets up his jumps. Dai ignores the music while doing jump set-ups. Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music. If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.

The usual Chan apologist's unbiased opinion. Geez.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Does anyone think Patrick's new ex number deserves a 10 for IN? I feel he is the one that plays the piano when I watch the program.

Of course!:biggrin: I'd give Patrick's this ex number 10 on PE, CH, and IN.

Patrick's skating is like red wine. I've gotten this impression from this season. You can't gulp down the whole glass of wine in hurry. Or you won't taste much of it. It's better to sip it slowly and take your time. The second time you watch it, you might develop new feelings and new appreciations that you didn't have the first time.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Of course!:biggrin: I'd give Patrick's this ex number 10 on PE, CH, and IN.

Patrick's skating is like red wine. I've gotten this impression from this season. You can't gulp down the whole glass of wine in hurry. Or you won't taste much of it. It's better to sip it slowly and take your time. The second time you watch it, you might develop new feelings and new appreciations that you didn't have the first time.

But seriously, it's not going to get a 10 because of the level of difficulty of program. Last year a perfect Take Five received lower PCS than a flawed Phantom in all five departments. Why? Because it's an easier program. The judegs had to take that factor into account.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
But seriously, it's not going to get a 10 because of the level of difficulty of program. Last year a perfect Take Five received lower PCS than a flawed Phantom in all five departments. Why? Because it's an easier program. The judegs had to take that factor into account.

I'm not saying that Patrick's new ex number could become a SP. I don't think it can get enough TR. Besides, if the powerful 4-3 jump added into such lyrical skating, it seems out of place. As of IN, what more one could possibly want out of such a piece?! It's so perfect on every note associated with movement!

As of Take Five and Phantom, I remember Pogue said before that it's customary that SP PCS is lower than LP PCS generally for everyone. Don't know the reason.
 
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Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
The usual Chan apologist's unbiased opinion. Geez.

And there you would be wrong because Dai is my favourite skater. The difference between you and I is that I can give credit to great skating even when it's NOT my favourite skater and I don't feel the need to trash the skater I don't like.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Chan's exhibition is what a program should look like to deserve a ten. If it is not possible to get a ten in interpretation while doing quads and triple Axels, then so be it. No 10.

You have to score by what the skater did, not what he might have done if he had left out the quads.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
I'm not saying that Patrick's new ex number could become a SP. I don't think it can get enough TR. Besides, if the powerful 4-3 jump added into such lyrical skating, it seems out of place. As of IN, what more one could possibly want out of such a piece?! It's so perfect on every note associated with movement!

As of Take Five and Phantom, I remember Pogue said before that it's customary that SP PCS is lower than LP PCS generally for everyone. Don't know the reason.

Great minds think alike!:clap: I don't think it will make a great sp either for the same reason. The choreography is beautiful simply because it doesn't have to comply with COP.

Do you agree with my reasoning on SP's lower PCS?
 
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deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Personally I still believe Dai's PCS should have been higher, especially P/E, CH and IN as others say. Pasquale re-choreographed his LP and DID add transitions into jumps/spins and/or inbetweens, even TR should have been slightly higher.
But I also agree, his performance at Nice, he looked more focused on technical sides. I loved his LP at GPF the best in performance-wise.

Utako sensei, his long-time coach admitted after the competiton as follows:
(Sources: in the Column written by Mie Noguchi, Sports Navi, Apr 6)

"This season Dai's first priority was getting back quads, so that he concentrated more on jumps and other technical sides, than performance/execution of the program. For someone like myself who has been closely watching him practice all these years, he is capable of doing much more than what we saw here in performance-wise. Dai's strength is his natural ability to skate with the music as if every notes of music come from inside of his body. It's not a thing that can be taught by a coach or anyone. To skate as if he himself becomes the music is his natural born talent. Since his quads have gotten stable finally, we can focus on this 'performance' side again. I will help him to get his peak in two years and strengthen his performance ability to draw audience in as best as ever, like no one else can."
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Patrick did lose the music after the error in the combo jump struggled to catch up, but up until that point, every element was perfectly in sync with the music.
Really? I thought it was long before that. Compare his circular footwork sequence in the following competitions:
4CC FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUASKHASs_8#t=1m050s
GPF FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc97QA3b-5E&feature=related#t=2m002s
GP Skate Canada FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYbdWqeLrkQ&feature=related#t=1m030s
World Championships FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dBI6kQ4riM#t=1m057s
His World LP was approximately one second behind the rest (i.e., 4CC, GPF, SC). It becomes clearer if we use some reference moves/notes. For instance, the move that he fell in TEB (both arms up, body leaning backward—Let’s call it “#up”) and the move that soon followed (kneeling down, right arm straight up—Let’s call it “#down”). As in SC, GPF and 4CC, the move #up went with the guitar note D and the move #down with the note C# that had a turn-like ornament. Because he was behind the music in the Worlds, Chan did the move #up with the guitar note C# and the move #down on an UNACCENTED beat (the last beat of a bar) where the guitar was in the middle of a pause and the orchestra was playing a transition.
It was hardly noticeable and it did not bother you? If so, it tells us that his circular footwork was designed as such that each move was not meant for a specific note and that note only. That’s called “highlighting every note” (or in fact “No note actually highlighted”). Think about it: It is safe and easy to simply tap on every beat, so one doesn’t even have to worry about upbeat and downbeat, or one beat late or early. Dai’s circular footwork, in contrast, could not get a beat wrong due to those small details that reflected synchopation and melody. A beat early or a beat late ==> doomed. Whose is more challenging in terms of musicality?
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
It was hardly noticeable and it did not bother you? If so, it tells us that his circular footwork was designed as such that each move was not meant for a specific note and that note only. That’s called “highlighting every note” (or in fact “No note actually highlighted”). Think about it: It is safe and easy to simply tap on every beat, so one doesn’t even have to worry about upbeat and downbeat, or one beat late or early.

First of all, I am truly amazed at your ability on spliting hair and picking bones from an egg!:bow:

Second, your "never give-up" spirit prompted me to try your method. I got the conclusion that the above quote from you best suited for Takahashi this year's LP.;) It's not because I want to say the opposit. It's because I have the proof.

Go to pick any his LP performances from SC, NHK, GPF, or 4CC, compare it with his 2012 Worlds LP. You could see that there were no exactly same programs. sometimes they were unisonant like a pair's skating, often they are a second or two apart. Sometimes his camel spin spinned more rotations than the other. Even some of his jumps have been placed in the different places with one, two, or even three seconds difference from competition to competition. His arms with the same movements highlighted different notes in different performances. In the end, he was able to squeeze the movements or simply skip the movements to end it almost always on time. His program has a lot of flexibility and freedom for him to move around and same movements repeated again and again. The astounding discovery was that I've found that Takahashi has lost much of the essence of this music in his World version of LP, for which I believe he has kept the best in his NHK, GPF, and 4CC versions.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
If Patrick had not had problems, I can realistically see him getting 10's for intrepretation.

A joke. What he does on ice comes nowhere near to expressing the lifetime of soul in the music. He is a sheltered kid who has never had to endure any real tragedy in life. He is extraordinarily gifted in many ways but this is the least of them.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
A joke. What he does on ice comes nowhere near to expressing the lifetime of soul in the music. He is a sheltered kid who has never had to endure any real tragedy in life. He is extraordinarily gifted in many ways but this is the least of them.

He is not disfigured but still got some 10's skating to Phantom! After watching his Elegy, you still think he cannot express the soul of the music? You are blind! Hatred is blind too!
 
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