Men's PCS at Worlds.

romanoff81 · Apr 10, 2012

Jo1 you have no proof of judges collusion, Chan only made one big mistake at the end and another minor one, his program was by far the most difficult in steps and transitions the guy never stops while most other top guys are taking breathers chan skates at 200 miles an hour. Carolina has the best coreographed program and most interesting music she had no lutz i concede but other girls weren`t clean and made mistakes as well.

Jo1 · Apr 10, 2012

Yes romanoff81 I have no proof. But, Aren't you suspicious when one country wins 2 disciplines? I surely am. Usually the judges and specialists spread it over 4 countries but not this time. Again, chan may be fast but is NOT the nost pleasant to look at. To me he is stiff and disconnected from the music. And, "best coreographed program" does not apply to Chan but it does to Dai. Again, IMHO. As for Kostner I have thought for a while that she is awkward and sloppy on the ice. This time was no different.

fairly4 · Apr 10, 2012

okay for me the pcs for me were way off.

a person fall due to a skating skill, getting a nine or 10 for performance and execution is unbelieveable.

for me a fall and nothing else should start off a 9, yes speed and flow count, but falls are counter productive.

i would have started patrick as a 8 in pcs for skating skill and performance/execution he ididn't execute jump correctly, somelthing was wrong with takeoff and landing which caused the fall, flow, edge, height, speed, something was technically skating skill wrong which caused the fall and execution which caused the fall.
choregraphy is halted and stunted with falls.
so pcs are overly marked in all disciplines. but it is just me.
the overall program is stunted by falls, the flow is interrupted, the speed is interrupted. so it should count off. no 10 should be given unless no- mistakes at all. 9's with 1 or 2 mistakes. 8 with what been going on. harsh maybe-but i am not spending good money to watch good skaters fall, screw up, skate messy, sloppy etc. i want them to do well most of the time-not badly most of the time which is what is happening. why skate well when skate bad and win.

alissa for me would have been a 3-4 . yes on spins okay 6,

romanoff81 · Apr 10, 2012

No i am not suspicious Chan and Virtue and moir designed their programs to get no help from others they worked hard all year to up their components, that is what their main rivals need to do design programs that will help get you there to the top of the poduim with no help from others.

emdee · Apr 10, 2012

Dai reduced his elements and difficulty from the Japan Open to the worlds - I think even from Skate Canada to worlds. Why should a skater who skates an easy program be rewarded for doing that.

Chan's difficulty is so high that he can make more mistakes . Have you seen them both live?

When I did I found Dai a very pleasant skater who skated almost as though it was an exhibition - beauty but without complexity. Chan was just mind boggling - his little leaps and turns and edges and speed. You are immediately left with the feeling that Dai is nice to watch but Chan is amazing.
JMO

romanoff81 · Apr 10, 2012

As far as other coaches blaming judges and federations that is the easy way out they didn`t do their job in designing programs that were more difficult than their rivals so they balme external factors instead of themselves.

skatinginbc · Apr 10, 2012

Bluebonnet said:
Sometimes his camel spin spinned more rotations than the other. Even some of his jumps have been placed in the different places with one, two, or even three seconds difference from competition to competition....

Please name specific examples that those changes resulted in rhythmic/melodic dissonance. Otherwise, your categorical claim proved little to us. Remember: As long as the entrance, foot change, and exit went with the music, the number of spin rotations did not significantly impact the musicality. Chan's lagging behind the music during his circular footwork, however, caused some of his choreographic highlights to look out of place. As I mentioned in my previous post, a kneeling move originally choreographed for an accented beat turned into highlighting an UNACCENTED beat and lost its meaning due to his timing problems, which occurred rather early during his free skate at Worlds. Indeed, he was struggling with the timing for over half of his program.

Dragonlady · Apr 10, 2012

Jo1 said:
Yes romanoff81 I have no proof. But, Aren't you suspicious when one country wins 2 disciplines? I surely am. Usually the judges and specialists spread it over 4 countries but not this time. Again, chan may be fast but is NOT the nost pleasant to look at. To me he is stiff and disconnected from the music. And, "best coreographed program" does not apply to Chan but it does to Dai. Again, IMHO. As for Kostner I have thought for a while that she is awkward and sloppy on the ice. This time was no different.

The judges have NEVER spread the medals around. Not as long as I've been watching skating. There's always been one or two countries who got the most medals.

Chan is VERY connected to the music, but it's through his body and his blades, not through his facial expressions. Dai really changed his program, skated the whole program pretty much upright with no use of levels, or changes of pace. Chan's stroking into his jumps is in time to the music. Dai stripped a lot of choreography out of his program in an effort to jump clean, and even that didn't work. Every time Dai set up a jumps, he skates right through the music and focusses on the jump. This was NOT the program he debuted at Skate Canada. That program was amazing.

I'm not a Kostner fan at all and I'm really sorry no one skated better than Carolina this year but I don't begrudge her this win. She was the best in a weak field, and she deserved the win.

Buttercup · Apr 10, 2012

There's already one Chan vs. Dai thread, is this really necessary? There were other skaters in Nice, you know. Some of them received PCS that also warrant discussion - why can't we move on to them? I mean, have you seen Florent Amodio's programs? Free Flo!

Also, Michelle Kwan. I realize she was not in Nice, but this thread is only missing her presence, so I figured I'd throw her in.

romanoff81 · Apr 10, 2012

Kwan played it too safe at the olympics especially when she knew her main rivals had triple-triple combinations which was more highly valued under 6.0 than COP.

Bluebonnet · Apr 10, 2012

Jo1 said:
Is there anyone out there who agrees that this worlds was "over the top" corrupt? IMHO I think Cinquanta's fingerprints were all over this competition. There was no way that Kostner was not going to get the gold and there was no way that Chan was not going to get the gold. After this Worlds I am very suspicious of the Canadian figure skating organization. I used to think they were on the up and up but no more. Again, IMHO Daisuke's program was much better that Chans (Even with his 2 quads) and, Kostner to me is awkward and somewhat sloppy. Go figure.

Jo1 said:
Yes romanoff81 I have no proof. But, Aren't you suspicious when one country wins 2 disciplines? I surely am. Usually the judges and specialists spread it over 4 countries but not this time.

What kind of logic is this?! :biggrin:

So intentionally spreading medals to more countries will not be called "corrupt", but giving them to what the judges believe the worthy winners was called "'over the top' corrupt"? :laugh:

skatinginbc · Apr 10, 2012

Dragonlady said:
Chan is VERY connected to the music.

Holistic impression: "Chan’s stoic interpretation of Concerto de Aranjuez rivals Takahashi’s showmanship in Blues for Klook. In some ways, Takahashi has greater range in musical interpretation in the peaks and valleys of his free skate over Chan, whose free skate stays at a similar level throughout (http://www.examiner.com/figure-skat...uestionable-components-correct-results-part-1)
Analytic impression: Chan's timing problems during his free skate resulted in many incidents of rhythmic/melodic dissonance as illustrated in Post #6 and #37.

Dragonlady said:
Chan is VERY connected to the music, but it's through his body and his blades...Dai..skated the whole program pretty much upright with no use of levels

Some of us might have confused skating skills with musicality. I have no problem with Chan's high scores in SS and TR. His skating was a beauty in itself, no matter if it went with the music or not.

evangeline · Apr 10, 2012

Dragonlady said:
Chan is VERY connected to the music, but it's through his body and his blades, not through his facial expressions. Dai really changed his program, skated the whole program pretty much upright with no use of levels, or changes of pace. Chan's stroking into his jumps is in time to the music. Dai stripped a lot of choreography out of his program in an effort to jump clean, and even that didn't work. Every time Dai set up a jumps, he skates right through the music and focusses on the jump. This was NOT the program he debuted at Skate Canada. That program was amazing.

No offence...but I find it rather disingenuous that you keep on asserting the claim bolded above when I provided several specific examples indicating the contrary (which you have not responded to) in this very thread (post #26).

Also, as a general question: I don't have access to Youtube presently, but can anyone specifically elaborate on where Daisuke stripped choreography out of his program? I know he went to Detroit after 4CC to have Pasquale re-choreograph parts of the program (off the top of my head, I remember they changed the end of the choreographed step sequence), but this isn't exactly synonymous with stripping away choreography per se. Can anyone actually provide any specific examples of choreography removed?

skatinginbc · Apr 10, 2012

Hanyu LP (PE + CH + IN = Median total: 24.75, Mean total: 25.11)
PE: Median 8.25, Mean 8.39 (7.75 9.00 8.75 9.00 8.25 8.25 7.50 8.75 8.00)
CH: Median 8.25, Mean 8.29 (7.50 8.50 8.50 9.00 8.25 8.00 7.75 8.75 8.25)
IN: Median 8.25, Mean 8.43 (7.75 9.50 8.50 9.25 8.25 8.25 7.50 8.75 8.25)

Joubert LP (PE + CH + IN = Median total: 25, Mean total: 24.97)
PE: Median 8.25, Mean 8.29 (8.00 7.75 8.75 8.25 8.25 8.50 8.50 9.00 7.75)
CH: Median 8.25, Mean 8.29 (8.00 7.75 8.50 8.50 8.00 8.25 8.50 9.25 8.25)
IN: Median 8.50, Mean 8.39 (8.25 8.00 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 8.50 9.50 8.00)

The majority of judges actually thought Brian's presentation was slightly better than Yuzuru's, perhaps because Brian had better (or mature-looking) postures and did not have a fall. Yet those who liked Yuzuru really liked him a lot and thus skewed the mean to his favor.

It was a tough call. I think they both had good presentation. I personally think it was the best Brian had ever skated. I probably would have gone with the majority of the judges and gave Joubert a slight, very slight edge over Hanyu in the presentation department.

Mathman · Apr 10, 2012

skatinginbc said:
The majority of judges actually thought Brian's presentation was slightly better than Yuzuru's...Yet those who liked Yuzuru really liked him a lot and thus skewed the mean to his favor.

Thus the CoP. A majority of judges think that skater A was better, but skater B gets higher scores.

Dragonlady · Apr 10, 2012

evangeline said:
No offence...but I find it rather disingenuous that you keep on asserting the claim bolded above when I provided several specific examples indicating the contrary (which you have not responded to) in this very thread (post #26).

Also, as a general question: I don't have access to Youtube presently, but can anyone specifically elaborate on where Daisuke stripped choreography out of his program? I know he went to Detroit after 4CC to have Pasquale re-choreograph parts of the program (off the top of my head, I remember they changed the end of the choreographed step sequence), but this isn't exactly synonymous with stripping away choreography per se. Can anyone actually provide any specific examples of choreography removed?

This is the version of the program from Skate Canada which you can compare to Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt-CuQT-1uo

skatinginbc · Apr 10, 2012

Dragonlady said:
Every time Dai set up a jumps, he skates right through the music.

That argument was logically flawed. To negate it, one only needs to provide an incident of counter evidence and evangeline did more than that in Post #26.
OK, assume that we cannot take that augment literally and that it didn't mean "every time" but "most of the time" instead. It was still logically wrong because Dai performed a sequence of 5 jumping passes in the second half of the program and every one of them was preceded with some choreographic moves or linking footwork. Therefore, that claim was rather exaggerated, based on little evidence.
I think what Dragonlady saw was Dai's relative lack of transitional/choreographic moves into his 4T.

ImaginaryPogue · Apr 10, 2012

Jo1 said:
Yes romanoff81 I have no proof. But, Aren't you suspicious when one country wins 2 disciplines? I surely am. Usually the judges and specialists spread it over 4 countries but not this time. Again, chan may be fast but is NOT the nost pleasant to look at. To me he is stiff and disconnected from the music. And, "best coreographed program" does not apply to Chan but it does to Dai. Again, IMHO. As for Kostner I have thought for a while that she is awkward and sloppy on the ice. This time was no different.

2010: Japan won two gold medals - Takahashi and Asada
2006 Olympics: Russia won three gold medals - Plushenko, T/M and N/K
2005: Russia won three gold medals - T/M, N/K and Slutskaya
2004: Russia won two gold medals - T/M, N/K
2002: Russia won two gold medals - Yagudin, Slutskaya

Olympia · Apr 10, 2012

Dragonlady said:
The judges have NEVER spread the medals around. Not as long as I've been watching skating. There's always been one or two countries who got the most medals.

It's actually only been recently that things have gotten spread around in skating medals, I agree. In fact, for decades on end, the Soviets/Russians owned two disciplines, pairs and ice dancing. From 1976 (the first appearance of ice dance in the Olympics) to 2002, I think only two non-Russian couples won the OGM, Torvill/Dean and Anissina/Piezerat (and Anissina is Russian). In that interval, only one pair won the OGM, Sale/Pelletier, and they shared the medal with the Russian pair. In 2006, Russians stood on top of three podiums, with only Arakawa of Japan winning gold for another country. Though judges might have preferred the European or Russian style, there was generally nothing suspicious about all these wins. Who could outskate Irina Rodnina? Who could power through ahead of Evgeny Plushenko or Alexei Yagudin?

These days, things are spread around more. The Russian program is in a bit of an eclipse (though not for long, I suspect), and American ladies and men, long at the pinnacle--well, it doesn't do to think of them right now. One of the great aspects of the 2010 Games was that gold medalists in all the disciplines came from different countries, and two of those countries were first-time gold medal winners.

So we have two Canadian winners? Not unexpected. Look at the quality of the winners in question. Of course I'd have preferred Takahashi to win, because I always want him to get the gold, and at this point (and probably forever) I prefer his style. But Chan isn't exactly chopped liver, as we say around here. I can't argue about PC's; I'll leave that part to all of you experts. But on behalf of Daisuke fans everywhere, I will just say this: Wait till next year!

pangtongfan · Apr 10, 2012

As much as I like him this year is probably as good as it gets again for Dai. He skated the best he has since his all time peak in 2008, he basically skated a clean LP with the quad and all the difficulty at Worlds. Still didnt even beat Hanyu with a fall, let alone a flawed Chan who even dusted him in PCS (controversially so). Chan has probably already peaked as well, but he doesnt have to get any better to be almost a lock to beat Dai with a large error margin over him in the judges eyes. Hanyu, Brezina, Fernandez, are all certain to improve alot more, and Hanyu is already capable of beating him even today. I do hope he proves me wrong though, and in part the stingy anti Takahashi judges do their part in helping that cause by giving him fairer marks.

Men's PCS at Worlds.

romanoff81

Match Penalty

Jo1

fairly4

romanoff81

Match Penalty

emdee

romanoff81

Match Penalty

skatinginbc

Dragonlady

Buttercup

romanoff81

Match Penalty

Bluebonnet

skatinginbc

evangeline

skatinginbc

Mathman

Dragonlady

skatinginbc

ImaginaryPogue

Olympia

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

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