Men's PCS at Worlds. | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Men's PCS at Worlds.

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
WallyLutz said:
To qualify as a controversy in the eyes of the ISU, there should be - at the very least - a protest filed by a member organization re: the results, partially or as a whole, regardless whether the claim is eventually accepted or not.

I think an issue can be controversial without anyone submitting a formal grievance. The issue is the scoring of the three "artistic marks," Performance and Execution, Choreography, and Interpretation. Unfortunately for Patrick, he got caught up in the middle of it. (Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. ;) )

Anyway, the points that I think are worthy of re-examination are as follows.

1. If a skater falls or makes other big errors on individual elements, should that have an effect on the three artistic components? After all, while the skater is sitting on the ice he is not performing, executing, interpreting the music, or delivering his choreography.

2. If a skater has marvelous skating skills and impressive transitions, does that mean that he should automatically receive high marks in musical interpretation, etc.?

3. If a skater does quads should we give him a bye in musicality, choreography, etc. Some folks have argued that obviously you can't do as much on the artistic side when you concentrate on big jumps, so a skater should get higher scores in presentation, etc., because we know he could do it if he left off the quads.

4. Should a skater get high marks in interpretation because he got high marks in interpretation all year, even though this particular performance was not of the same quality?

5. Where are all these 9's and 10's coming from all of a sudden? I don't recall Stephane Lambiel being showered with 9.5s, and he was way more musical, artistic, etc., than anyone out there now.

6. Why do we need three separate marks, when they are all the same anyway? Do judges really try to apply the criteria for presentation separately from the bullets for choreography, etc.?

In general, do we need a Joe Inman memo to address the question, why are top skaters getting such high marks in musicality for performances that have only ordinary musical or artistic merit?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Oops, I forgot one. :)

7. Figure skating is part sport, part performing art. Performing artists perform for somebody. If the audience is not involved, moved, thrilled, inspired, wowed, is it really a great performance? (The actor played the greatest Hamlet in history. The audience hated it, but what do they know? ;) )
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Oops, I forgot one. :)

7. Figure skating is part sport, part performing art. Performing artists perform for somebody. If the audience is not involved, moved, thrilled, inspired, wowed, is it really a great performance? (The actor played the greatest Hamlet in history. The audience hated it, but what do they know? ;) )

The judges are audience too. The difference is that the judges are trained audience who know where to look and what to listen. The trained audiences were involved, moved, thrilled, inspired, and wowed.:) This is the gap between the judges and the public which need to be on the relatively same page but wasn't. ISU has a great task on it to educate the public which they have so far ignored.

Anyway, the points that I think are worthy of re-examination are as follows.

1. If a skater falls or makes other big errors on individual elements, should that have an effect on the three artistic components? After all, while the skater is sitting on the ice he is not performing, executing, interpreting the music, or delivering his choreography.

2. If a skater has marvelous skating skills and impressive transitions, does that mean that he should automatically receive high marks in musical interpretation, etc.?

3. If a skater does quads should we give him a bye in musicality, choreography, etc. Some folks have argued that obviously you can't do as much on the artistic side when you concentrate on big jumps, so a skater should get higher scores in presentation, etc., because we know he could do it if he left off the quads.

4. Should a skater get high marks in interpretation because he got high marks in interpretation all year, even though this particular performance was not of the same quality?

5. Where are all these 9's and 10's coming from all of a sudden? I don't recall Stephane Lambiel being showered with 9.5s, and he was way more musical, artistic, etc., than anyone out there now.

6. Why do we need three separate marks, when they are all the same anyway? Do judges really try to apply the criteria for presentation separately from the bullets for choreography, etc.?

In general, do we need a Joe Inman memo to address the question, why are top skaters getting such high marks in musicality for performances that have only ordinary musical or artistic merit?

I agree that #1, #2, #3, #5, #6 could be re-examed and reviewed. But where did #4 come from? Had any of these skaters received high marks in IN because they got high marks in it all year?
 
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ciocio

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
ISU has a great task on it to educate the public which they have so far ignored.

How?
Who educates the public to like a singer/actor/dancer, etc?
What could ISU do, force my mother to join golden skate and read wallylutz rants???:laugh::rolleye:
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
1. If a skater falls or makes other big errors on individual elements, should that have an effect on the three artistic components? After all, while the skater is sitting on the ice he is not performing, executing, interpreting the music, or delivering his choreography.
To me, it is not so much about the type of errors (e.g., fall, two-foot, etc.) as about the degree of interruption (i.e., severity × length of time). A small error (e.g., timing problem) that lasts for a long time (e.g., 2 minutes) is rather disruptive in my mind. A fall that recovers in a blink of an eye is sometimes more forgivable than an off-centered, off-balanced drawn-out spin. One of the most disruptive errors is when skaters skate around doing nothing, waiting for a right moment to continue as it sometimes occurs after a failed lift. It involves lengthy loss of choreography, performance and interpretation.
2. If a skater has marvelous skating skills and impressive transitions, does that mean that he should automatically receive high marks in musical interpretation, etc.?
No. It should depend on the actual performance. There is no question that skating skills and transitions are part of artistry. A beauty queen who is truly beautiful is still intrinsically beautiful even if she makes a big tumble on the stage. The skating skills and transitions are what constitute the intrinsic beauty. The big tumble is what impacts the presentation. They are different although somewhat correlated (e.g, great skating skills allow more room for artistic expressions).
3. If a skater does quads should we give him a bye in musicality, choreography, etc. Some folks have argued that obviously you can't do as much on the artistic side when you concentrate on big jumps, so a skater should get higher scores in presentation, etc., because we know he could do it if he left off the quads.
It somewhat depends on the stage of technical development. Mao is currently the only elite lady that I know of attempting the 3A. I feel if I were the judge, I would be more lenient to her longer preparation or lack of transitions into that jump as long as it does not go against the mood of the music. Dai's simple quad entrance at the Worlds did not contradict the music whose rhythm was slow, loose and barely discernible and whose mood was languid. Languidly doesn't go with busy bees. Completing a difficult jump may create a big WOW, which I think rightfully contributes to the overall presentation.
4. Should a skater get high marks in interpretation because he got high marks in interpretation all year, even though this particular performance was not of the same quality?
Of course not. But it is easier said than done. Although scores arguably may not be compared across competitions, those marks stick in the judges' heads, especially those of famous skaters. It's called "reputation judging". Chan received 9.0 for PE, 8.96 for CH, and 9.21 for IN (average 9.06) at Worlds, compared to his 9.04 for PE, 9.11 for CH, and 8.96 for IN (average 9.04) at 4CC, where he had neither fall nor timing issues nor troubled spins. Viktoria HELGESSON received a -1 time deduction at Worlds as well. Her average score for the three categories at Worlds was 6.33, compared to her average at the European 7.01. It reflects that those presentation scores could fluctuate greatly from performance to performance if the judges see fit.
5. Where are all these 9's and 10's coming from all of a sudden? I don't recall Stephane Lambiel being showered with 9.5s, and he was way more musical, artistic, etc., than anyone out there now.
Stephane Lambiel :love:, Jeffrey Buttle :love:
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
How?
Who educates the public to like a singer/actor/dancer, etc?
What could ISU do, force my mother to join golden skate and read wallylutz rants???:laugh::rolleye:

You can't educate the public to like a skater.

What the ISU can do, or hope the TV networks do, is educate the public to understand why the winners win -- whether because the best technical skater is just that much better technically than the closest audience-friendly skater, or because two or more skaters are close in ability and that day's judging panel using that year's rules happened to favor one skater's strengths most highly.

(See the Educating the public thread).

Fans will like whoever they like, for all sorts of reasons that may have nothing at all to do with how results are determined or that may be only a small part of what's being measured. And different fans will like different skaters.

The trick is for the media not to be so partisan that it "educates" fans to believe that a skater who they find more likeable is for that reason more worthy of winning.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Better educated fans will still have their personal preferences, but maybe they will accept that competitions are not all about their hearts, or they may put up supporting arguments when crying wazrobbed for their favorites.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To me, it is not so much about the type of errors (e.g., fall, two-foot, etc.) as about the degree of interruption (i.e., severity × length of time). A small error (e.g., timing problem) that lasts for a long time (e.g., 2 minutes) is rather disruptive in my mind. A fall that recovers in a blink of an eye is sometimes more forgivable than an off-centered, off-balanced drawn-out spin.

I agree with that. But a well-choreographed routine uses the big jumps either to highlight a big musical climax or else (equally cool) to fill a pregnant pause. The choreography is severely compromised when the trumpet blares and the tympani rolls to a big "ta-da!", only to see the performer stumble around off-balance trying to hold a landing.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
The choreography is severely compromised when the trumpet blares and the tympani rolls to a big "ta-da!", only to see the performer stumble around off-balance trying to hold a landing.
That reflects the Severity part of my formula: severity × length of time = degree of interruption.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What the ISU can do, or hope the TV networks do, is educate the public to understand why the winners win...

INHO this is not so easy when it comes to the three artistic components. The public already understands that a quad is a big point getter. They can be told (they don't have to like it) that just rotating a quad is worth some points even if the skater falls. TV commentators could do a better job in pointing out some of the things that go into Skating Skills and Transitions (instead of just exclaiming, "In this crazy scoring system you get points for every tiny little thing you do!")

When it comes to the musical interpretation and performance side of things, though, I think "educating the public' is a tougher task. Howe can you educate the public to believe that the skater is exuding energy that establishes an invisible bond with the audience? I think the audience is well within its right to say, "Hey, I am the audience." I think it would be hard to get the audience to appreciate the degree to which the skater expressed the style, character and rhythm of the music while performing the required tricks, especially if they didn't like the performance in the first place.

I might be wrong about that, though. Dick Button always gave it a good shot back in the day.

Better educated fans will still have their personal preferences, but maybe they will accept that competitions are not all about their hearts, or they may put up supporting arguments when crying wazrobbed for their favorites.

I think the opposite is a greater peril to the sport. Fans will conclude that it is not about their hearts at all. That will be the end of figure skating as a spectator sport.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
INHO this is not so easy when it comes to the three artistic components. The public already understands that a quad is a big point getter. They can be told (they don't have to like it) that just rotating a quad is worth some points even if the skater falls. TV commentators could do a better job in pointing out some of the things that go into Skating Skills and Transitions (instead of just exclaiming, "In this crazy scoring system you get points for every tiny little thing you do!")

When it comes to the musical interpretation and performance side of things, though, I think "educating the public' is a tougher task. Howe can you educate the public to believe that the skater is exuding energy that establishes an invisible bond with the audience? I think the audience is well within its right to say, "Hey, I am the audience." I think it would be hard to get the audience to appreciate the degree to which the skater expressed the style, character and rhythm of the music while performing the required tricks, especially if they didn't like the performance in the first place.

I might be wrong about that, though. Dick Button always gave it a good shot back in the day.





I think the opposite is a greater peril to the sport. Fans will conclude that it is not about their hearts at all. That will be the end of figure skating as a spectator sport.

People always have hearts but know the head has a big part to play in most decisions too. Personally I accept some of my favorites will never win the big titles as much as I love their skating and continue to do so. In the music scene, are popular best selling songs automatically the best music or vocals? We have singing popularity contests and then we have judged piano competitions. When it comes to competitions of highly technical skills and specific rules, experts' opinions count, even if some among the audience feel otherwise. As part of an audience, I take these kinds of competitions as learning opportunities as well.

A few weeks ago, I was walking with a friend who only watches figure skating occasionally. A proverbial casual fan. I don't remember what brought it up but I said that the American commentators were pretty stuck on the old way of judging and constantly disparaged the current judging system and my friend jumped right in with "I know! They should be promoting the sport, not turning people off." He spoke not as a fan but as businessman who easily spots counter-productivity.

eta. Said friend is an American, in case my opinion is called anti Americanism.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is a question that I have often wondered about. Certainly the ISU judges have solid expertise and training in judging the technical aspects of figure skating. But are they equally well qualified to pass judgement on the artistic side? Do they have training and experience in music, dance, and performance values?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
INHO this is not so easy when it comes to the three artistic components. The public already understands that a quad is a big point getter. They can be told (they don't have to like it) that just rotating a quad is worth some points even if the skater falls. TV commentators could do a better job in pointing out some of the things that go into Skating Skills and Transitions (instead of just exclaiming, "In this crazy scoring system you get points for every tiny little thing you do!")

When it comes to the musical interpretation and performance side of things, though, I think "educating the public' is a tougher task.

May I bring this post over to the Educating the public thread and discuss there when I have a chance?

Here is a question that I have often wondered about. Certainly the ISU judges have solid expertise and training in judging the technical aspects of figure skating. But are they equally well qualified to pass judgement on the artistic side? Do they have training and experience in music, dance, and performance values?

Some do and some don't, same as the audience. And those that do would have different areas of expertise and different blind spots within the general category of "performing arts" -- same as the audience, and same as any outside performing arts experts or theorists who might be brought in to offer their outside expertise.

In ice dance, you have a higher proportion of judges who were high-level ice dancers themselves; both in their own skating training and in their judging training they would have studied relevant aspects of ballroom dance. Although free dance has not primarily been about replicating ballroom dance on ice for several decades by now.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
We have singing popularity contests and then we have judged piano competitions.

What I wish is that judged piano competitions could somehow be made more popular. That would be the best of both worlds.

But piano competitions are too wild and wooly. The International Chopin competition is held every five years in Poland. The 1980 competition,

entered the history of music competitions as a result of heated arguments among members of the jury. The controversy arising from a difference in opinion about a contestant, 22-year-old Yugoslavian pianist Ivo Pogorelić, and his openly provocative style of interpretation and behavior on the stage, developed into a worldwide scandal.

The jury divided into two groups: those who found his playing unacceptable, and those who were enthusiastic or at least approving of his performance, most notably Martha Argerich, Paul Badura-Skoda and Nikita Magaloff. Finally, when Pogorelić did not reach the final fourth stage, Martha Argerich ostentatiously left the jury, announcing that she felt ashamed for having taken part in the judging process. This followed another scandal a few days earlier, when another member of the jury, Louis Kentner, had resigned because of his disapproval of the assessment.

However, while Kentner never returned to Warsaw, Martha Argerich has been a juror in subsequent editions of the Chopin Competition up to 2010. After the affair Ivo Pogorelić gained great popularity in Poland and abroad.

Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Chopin_Piano_Competition

That's what figure skating needs. A big judging scandal with judges storming out of the arena in righteous wrath. :yes:
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
What I wish is that judged piano competitions could somehow be made more popular.
The International Tchaikovsky Competition Voting System (http://www.tchaikovsky-competition.com/en/the_tchaikovsky/voting_system) designed by Dr. John MacBain, who is both a mathematician and musician, apparently did not scare the casual fans off with statistical jargon. A supporter of a contestant who failed to enter the final round bounded over to a judge and shouted, "shame on you" at last year's competition. Well, it was the first time ever in the piano competition history that every round was shown live online, and viewers were encouraged to cast their votes. Judges were allowed to tweet and email their opinions as the contest progressed. It was as transparent as could. The fans knew which judge to blame. I, however, fear for the judges' lives:biggrin:.
 
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amber68

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
When it comes to the musical interpretation and performance side of things, though, I think "educating the public' is a tougher task. Howe can you educate the public to believe that the skater is exuding energy that establishes an invisible bond with the audience? I think the audience is well within its right to say, "Hey, I am the audience." I think it would be hard to get the audience to appreciate the degree to which the skater expressed the style, character and rhythm of the music while performing the required tricks, especially if they didn't like the performance in the first place.


I think it I would be really stupid from ISU to think that the main problem is that the audiences are uneducated and can’t appreciate good skating .
Many people from the audiences are not hard core figure skating fans but people who watch figure skating once or twice a year, maybe only the big events and go to see live competitions or shows only if they have the opportunity. They like figure skating, buy tickets, fill the arenas but don’t feel the need to understand all the intricacies of the scoring system. And this is the normal attitude; one does not have to understand all the rules to “feel” greatness.
For example I do not know much about football, I don’t care to know everything about it, but when I see F.C. Barcelona playing I surely understand that those players are something special and it wouldn’t even cross my mind to question their win.
Also when I read a book I feel if the author is a great writer or not. I do not need a degree in literature to be able to appreciate it. I do not need to understand exactly why I was impressed and why I think I just read something remarkable.
The same used to happen and should happen in figure skating.
Great skaters manage to enchant the audiences, no matter the score system, current rules etc.
What happens if COP changes tomorrow? Will the audiences have to be re-educated?
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Unlike some of the members here, I am no expert in figure skating, nor music, dance, and/or any other form of so-called 'arts'.

One of the moments I appreciate very much in figure skating is; when a skater picks up the music, which is a completely unknown piece to me so that I have never listened before, or I have no idea what is the story behind the music if it's a part of ballet scores or movie scores, s/he skates to it beautifully and draw me into her/his performance.
As a result I come to love the music because of the programs, thanks to its choreographer and skater. I appreciate even more so if the genre (category) of that music is out of my usual range of, or out of my usual interest for the music.
Without watching it as a skating program, I doubt I ever come to love it, or I will ever be able to have an opportunity to listen to it in the first place.

For example, Blood Diamond by Stephane, Ararat by Jeffrey, or The Garden of Soul by Daisuke definitely belong to this category; I go back to repeat time and time again and never get tired of watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hlj7bSqa98

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypNSQb9heLA
-> This is from 2008 Worlds. I would much prefer 2007 Tokyo Worlds version because I loved the color of his shirt, but I cannot find any vids from 2007 Worlds...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsUplazBWp0

Whenever I get to watch these kinds of programs, I just forget it's actually a competition. How many points the skater is gonna get, or the placement, a quad or not, a fall on a jump, I do not care. I just enjoy the feast, delicious moments of figure skating.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Great skaters manage to enchant the audiences, no matter the score system, current rules etc.
What happens if COP changes tomorrow? Will the audiences have to be re-educated?

Ideally, many skaters will enchant audiences, especially at the top levels but some lower-skilled skaters will also be able to transcend their own technique level with great performances.

But in competition, there will be results of first, second, and third, which might hinge on fine points of technique. The trick is to enjoy the enchantment without believing that the correct order of results is the order of how enchanting each skater was with no regard to technique. Especially because different viewers may feel emotional connections to different skaters for different reasons that have nothing to do with skating technique.

Whenever I get to watch these kinds of programs, I just forget it's actually a competition. How many points the skater is gonna get, or the placement, a quad or not, a fall on a jump, I do not care. I just enjoy the feast, delicious moments of figure skating.

Exactly! Enjoy the performances, regardless of placement. Hopefully there will be many performances to enjoy, not only from the medalists.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Oh, wow! That's some story. I'm familiar with Argerich, and she's known for her muscular, powerful playing. I can imagine that she'd be unorthodox and also emphatic in her opinions.

I think a lot of people believe that classical music is a bastion of old-fashioned, mannerly, and even pantywaist folk who live in some sort of hothouse away from the sharp elbows of the real world. Hah! They're clearly just as emotional as rock singers and skaters. That's a good thing: they'll do justice to their Rachmaninoff.

I gather from listening to the classical music radio stations that Pogorelic has a thriving international career, so clearly Argerich was right.
 
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