What We Talk About When We Talk About Pairs (Y/T/T) | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What We Talk About When We Talk About Pairs (Y/T/T)

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
My guess is that they won't try to top it; Ingo Steuer knows what he's doing, and will give them something as different as possible - to avoid comparisons and to keep Aliona, Robin, the judges and the fans interested. I also expect at least one "softer" program; they haven't had one since the Olympic season.

Robin, BTW, was the oldest skater at Worlds - so yes, you can have a prolonged career and succeed well into your thirties.

Cool. I agree - I actually expect a softer program next season playing up a romantic connection. But Pina was so interesting, so full of different movement that I can't help wanting them to pursue more in that direction.

I wouldn't lump Canada and the US into one category. the US last had a pairs team on the podium in 2002 (?) compared with 2008 for Canada, and I think you could make an argument that D/D should have been higher that year. Canadian pairs consistently perform better on the GP and finish higher at Worlds. D/C are just painful to watch and Y/R are too much of an unknown. Maybe Donlan/Speroff will save US pairs, but it won't be in this Olympic cycle.

Trueish. Resurgence was the wrong word, but I do view the current crop as Canadian pairs as mostly skilled journeyman.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I don't think Sui & Han will be the future of Chinese Pairs. One of these days, she's going to grow and he's the smallest pairs guy I've ever seen, about the same height as Tatiana Voloszar. I'm much more impressed with the other young Chinese team, Yu & Jin. They have much better basics and positions. They don't have the huge tricks and they're quite juniorish at this point, but they have a strong foundation to build on and they're only 16 and 17 so there's lots of time for them to develop.

I agree. Sui & Han are awful and will prove to be a flash in the pan. Takahashi & Tran have already passed them, and they were easily beating them in juniors. Yu & Jin will pass them by as early as next season IMO.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Yeah, I think S/K are not in the running for Sochi unless something changes dramatically. K/S & V/T's spots are secure barring injury. B/L have a major issue with their side by side jumps (though at least, thank goodness, they are mostly landing them in unison now) but their lifts are gorgeous, their height on the triple twist is sometimes the best of the top teams, and she rarely goes down on throws. S/K struggle with lifts, have no triple twist, and sometimes also struggle with landing the SBS jumps. It is possible that someone will overtake B/L before Sochi (though IMO unlikely) but barring a miracle it won't be S/K.

I think K/S are more likely to be dumped by Sochi then B/L.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I agree. Sui & Han are awful and will prove to be a flash in the pan. Takahashi & Tran have already passed them, and they were easily beating them in juniors. Yu & Jin will pass them by as early as next season IMO.

T/T won bronze with the many mistakes of the top pairs, I wouldn't say they have surpassed S/H, Narumi still needs to be consistent with their throws and SBS jumps, S/H have terrible skating skills but they still have their quad arsenals to overmark their PCS, though maybe the judges could be toning it down with their marks
as S/H have begin to struggle, if Sui grows a few more inches, their quads will be no more and nothing else to make up for that .Han will need to look for another tiny partner given he is a small male pairs skater.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
I don't think Sui & Han will be the future of Chinese Pairs. One of these days, she's going to grow and he's the smallest pairs guy I've ever seen, about the same height as Tatiana Voloszar. I'm much more impressed with the other young Chinese team, Yu & Jin. They have much better basics and positions. They don't have the huge tricks and they're quite juniorish at this point, but they have a strong foundation to build on and they're only 16 and 17 so there's lots of time for them to develop.

I agree with this. I think Yu/Jin will eventually pass Sui/Han. They have better basic skills and also, I believe, a bigger size difference. I don't think Sui/Han can keep up the big tricks once Sui attains her full growth. There's not much size difference between them now and when she gets bigger, the partnership may well be over. I mean, he is SHORT, definitely among the shortest pairs guys ever, as you said.

I also agree with your comments about the shortcomings in Sui/Han's basic skating. Honestly I do not understand the relatively high PCS they've gotten; to me it's a failure of the judging system. I don't care how exciting the quads are; nothing else in their programs measures up to the tricks. And I'm very bothered by the up-and-down pumping motion of their shoulders during basic stroking, especially on Sui's part. It's just distracting and not good technique. How spectators can see this, while the judges appear not to notice, is beyond me. My sensation, watching Sui/Han, is of a pair bouncing around the rink, going up and down, up and down, as they pump through strokes and in and out of elements. Yes, they're good performers, but the praise heaped on them has been way overboard. Same with Denney/Coughlin, another team with good technical skills but really not much else in their arsenal (at this point anyway).
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I also agree with your comments about the shortcomings in Sui/Han's basic skating. Honestly I do not understand the relatively high PCS they've gotten; to me it's a failure of the judging system. I don't care how exciting the quads are; nothing else in their programs measures up to the tricks. And I'm very bothered by the up-and-down pumping motion of their shoulders during basic stroking, especially on Sui's part. It's just distracting and not good technique. How spectators can see this, while the judges appear not to notice, is beyond me. My sensation, watching Sui/Han, is of a pair bouncing around the rink, going up and down, up and down, as they pump through strokes and in and out of elements. Yes, they're good performers, but the praise heaped on them has been way overboard. Same with Denney/Coughlin, another team with good technical skills but really not much else in their arsenal (at this point anyway).

There’s certainly justification for high scores for performance and interpretation, but skating skills, transitions, and choreography, not so much. The whole “two skating as one” aspect of Pairs skating is supposed to be a huge thing and was one of the main arguments in favour of placing Elena & Anton over David & Jamie in SLC. It gets special mention in the judging rules as part of the PCS criteria and yet this team gets 8’s(?????) for skating skills when they land the quads, even when the split quad twist ends with her slung over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes. It makes no sense.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
T/T won bronze with the many mistakes of the top pairs, I wouldn't say they have surpassed S/H, Narumi still needs to be consistent with their throws and SBS jumps, S/H have terrible skating skills but they still have their quad arsenals to overmark their PCS, though maybe the judges could be toning it down with their marks
as S/H have begin to struggle, if Sui grows a few more inches, their quads will be no more and nothing else to make up for that .Han will need to look for another tiny partner given he is a small male pairs skater.

T/T also made a lot of mistakes in both phases of the competition. Their throws got negative GOE all over. Their jumps got -GOE, downgraded, etc...
D/D were the only pair that got bronze for clean programs with many mistakes of the top pairs.
Z/Z were the only pair that got rock for clean programs with many mistakes of the top pairs.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Dube & Davison had easier elements, skated slower and "smaller" than the the two teams who finished above them. Bronze was the right placement for them at that event.

Who are Z/Z?
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
My favorite pairs team is Sui and Han. Two Chinese kids performing as American cowboys? That's hilarious. They should get a gold medal just for that. I love watching those two. They do such awesome tricks. The girl is absolutely fearless and so bendy. I wonder why they didn't medal at Worlds. Probably because the judges have a fetish for angsty, operatic, dramatic, romance programs. ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006

DianaSelene

Medalist
Joined
Aug 2, 2011
They finally finished their career together. I'm not surprised since other American couples are becoming more consistent at jump elements.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
My favorite pairs team is Sui and Han. Two Chinese kids performing as American cowboys? That's hilarious. They should get a gold medal just for that. I love watching those two. They do such awesome tricks. The girl is absolutely fearless and so bendy. I wonder why they didn't medal at Worlds. Probably because the judges have a fetish for angsty, operatic, dramatic, romance programs. ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I guess you missed the part up thread wherein we discussed all of the reasons why, they not only didn't place on the podium, but why they SHOULDN'T be on the podium, big tricks or not. They're very entertaining, but the judges are catching on to their smoke and mirrors choreography.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
I read it after I posted, but I disagree. First off, I don't mind the pumping stroking that Sui, Kanako Murakami, and early Ashley Wagner do. It just doesn't bother me. For people that it does bother, Besides, lots of skaters lack power in their stroking and it's fixable.

Secondly, which I think is more important, Sui and Han are the only pairs I can watch without nodding off or shrugging my shoulders at. Pang and Tong's Turandot? Meh. Shen and Zhao doing yet another classical music rendition? Seen it. Zhang and Zhang are serious and in love. I get it. The epitome of pairs, that Russian G-number1 and G-number2, only did quietly angsty, serious, lovey-dovey programs that all looked the same. I'm sure their stoking skills and etc are better, but what's the point if their programs are boring to watch? Does anyone want to take a second look at any of Patrick Chan's Take Five variations?

I take back my statement that only Sui and Han are entertaining. At last year's worlds, the German pair's Pink Panther was fun.
 

claphappy

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
I read it after I posted, but I disagree. First off, I don't mind the pumping stroking that Sui, Kanako Murakami, and early Ashley Wagner do. It just doesn't bother me. For people that it does bother, Besides, lots of skaters lack power in their stroking and it's fixable.

Secondly, which I think is more important, Sui and Han are the only pairs I can watch without nodding off or shrugging my shoulders at. Pang and Tong's Turandot? Meh. Shen and Zhao doing yet another classical music rendition? Seen it. Zhang and Zhang are serious and in love. I get it. The epitome of pairs, that Russian G-number1 and G-number2, only did quietly angsty, serious, lovey-dovey programs that all looked the same. I'm sure their stoking skills and etc are better, but what's the point if their programs are boring to watch? Does anyone want to take a second look at any of Patrick Chan's Take Five variations?

I take back my statement that only Sui and Han are entertaining. At last year's worlds, the German pair's Pink Panther was fun.

Iliushechkina/Maisuradze were really fun too, but unfortunately they are no more.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
My favorite pairs team is Sui and Han. Two Chinese kids performing as American cowboys? That's hilarious. They should get a gold medal just for that. I love watching those two. They do such awesome tricks. The girl is absolutely fearless and so bendy. I wonder why they didn't medal at Worlds. Probably because the judges have a fetish for angsty, operatic, dramatic, romance programs. ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Well for starters they made alot of mistakes at Worlds, something the surprise bronze medalists didnt do.
 
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