Ice dance result opinions/question?

Dragonlady said:

I think the difference is that in ballroom the drama is not at the expense of the footwork or the choreography. Dance cannot be just frantic upper body movement and facial expressions, while the feet maintain balance. Weaver & Poje managed a wonderful combination of movement and drama this year with their Je suis malade program. There was a clear story, beautifully expressed, but not at the expense of what was going on below the knee.

Click to expand...

I did not know blue dog was referring to the upper body movement at the expense of footwork. I was just saying that the face in ballroom dancing is almost as important as everything else. Ballroom dancing has enough of its own drama going on.

The step sequences of D/W were deemed lesser by the technical controller at worlds and if that was so for the technical controller it probably also affected the judges. If David and White were not getting level 4 or really good and impressive high 3 with GOE it was why they were below V/M. If one team is doing there elements weaker than the usually do it will affect the levels from the TC and what the judges do. D/W almost lost the SD to P/B and you can say that was because it was France but P/B did appear a lot better with there SD than D/W did with there SD and that was reflected in the scores. But with the FD you saw P/B fall way behind again because the TES and PCS of DW was still considered far superior but not as good as V/M who were very consistent. When V/M lost worlds it was because they didn't really do that FD and it wasn't as polished and technically or PCS refined.

That might make sense, except that at the WTT, the same two teams skated in virtually the same way in the FD, except that V&M skated a little better than at Worlds at WTT, D&W skated a little worse than at Worlds at WTT, and they received exactly the opposite result from the judges.

Both teams are very, very good indeed, and overall, very closely matched. But I do think that these teams both have strong and weak points, and, as it happens, several of the strong points of one team are the weak points of the other. I feel that is one reason why D&W and V&M are the cause of so many "Tastes great" vs "Less filling" type arguments in the fan community.

Judges are people like the rest of us; they have their own opinions about what is most important in ice dance. Consequently, it is possible to create panels of judges that will give inconsistent results judging teams that are nearly equal, just as we saw at WTT and Worlds, without having to invoke conspiracy theories involving Russia.

And before you ask, judging panels & technical panels are appointed by Speedy himself, with the advice of the ISU VP of figure skating, David Dore, former head of Skate Canada, and typically the president of the location where the event is held is consulted as well (in the case of Worlds, Didier Gailhaguet former co-conspirator in the 2002 Olympic judging scandals, and in the case of WTT, the head of JSF whose name I don't know)

In my own case, I make no claims of impartiality, but I do try to give all teams their due, and I like most all dance teams, and am grateful to them all for providing me with so much enjoyment. I do however occasionally either love a program or detest a program.

This year I far preferred D&W's FD to V&M's FD, mostly because I have hated the music of Funny Face since I was a small child. IMO, neither Fred Astaire nor Audrey Hepburn were good singers. Age did not improve Fred in this respect either. Also, I detest hearing the English language distorted & tortured to make a rhyme or a meter come out right, and S'Marvelous is a hymn to that kind of practice. I also really do not prefer FD's with a lot of posing & facial mugging in them, and especially at the beginning of the year, Funny Face was like that. I do respect how hard V&M worked to improve FF, but at the end of the year, I was very glad to see it go, and eagerly await what they will chose to skate to next year; it's got to be something I like better, because I could hardly like FF much less, as a program.

There is a reason that a team of fine skaters, like Tessa & Scott, couldn't get the kind of standing ovations they normally get with Funny Face. I'm not alone out there in disliking that program.

However, that should not affect the judges, but judges are people too.

Doris, it's interesting about your view of the singing abilities of Astaire and Hepburn and how that affects your reaction to the program. This gave me a thought about how I have been reacting to this program.

For me Fred Astaire's voice was an acquired taste, but I came to love it as part of his overall talent, and it helps that he's my favorite film dancer ever. (Hey, Gene Kelly's voice isn't anything to write home about, either.) For me it isn't the age of his voice that renders "Funny Face" (from the early 1950s) less appealing than his earlier works, but more the arrangement of the music. The blaring, brass-heavy orchestral treatment typical of late forties and early fifties movies is just too overbearing for Fred's streamlined, Art Deco-era delivery. I usually take his voice in a particular context: when he showed up, he was modernity itself compared to the florid tenors and resonant baritones of earlier popular singers, whose voices were probably influenced by operetta. Astaire's tones seemed made of some lightweight state-of-the art material like fiberglass. The same was true of Ginger Rogers, whose voice was almost as unadorned as talking in tune. I find it fascinating that they never dubbed her--the other great female dancer of the era, Eleanor Powell, was generally dubbed for the big numbers. Significantly, Fred Astaire holds the men's record (unofficial) in the 20th century as having the most songs written for him (or that he introduced to the public). And what doozies they were, too--most of them written by Cole Porter, Jerome Kern, Irving Berlin, and George Gershwin. This guy with his admittedly funny voice might be the backbone of American pop standard music. (The woman with this title is more obvious: Ethel Merman. Now, that woman had a real instrument.) His interpretive powers were actually pretty splendid, though he was less honeyed in delivery than someone like Nelson Eddy. He perfectly suited the debonair songs of Cole Porter and the other titans of American popular songs before the rock-and-roll era.

This may seem irrelevant to the discussion of the skating, but for me the particular use of Astaire's voice by the musical presentation does influence my impression of this program. Like the overwrought arrangement of the music (which is directly from the movie, not at all the fault of Zoueva or anyone from Canton), the program seems a bit heavy-handed to me, too. It seems to take forever, with changes of music seeming to be tacked on. The skating is certainly proficient, but to me it lacks the lightness that I expect of a Fred Astaire production (and mind you, this music is by Gershwin, though it's a reworking orchestrally of much more buoyant original arrangements). So when it wins the gold instead of the magical champagne frothiness of Davis/White's Die Fledermaus (with their perfect lightfooted interpretation), I'm a bit disappointed. To me, Die Fledermaus is something new and fresh, despite its being a hundred years earlier than the Gershwin. It's a new form for Strauss, a rising to a new level, a springtime music. The Funny Face arrangement by MGM is a rehashing of thirties music that is vibrant but would be better in its original form.

So, like Doris but for a different reason, my reaction to the music colors my response to V/M's program.

(And I agree about Audrey Hepburn's singing. I love Hepburn, and she sang in tune, but yeah, she's not the world's greatest interpreter of emotion through music. She's basically just along for the ride.)

I personally prefer V/M over D/W. I'm not a figure skater or an ice dancer myself so I suppose my knowledge is rather limited on the technical stuff but this is what I see: D/W tend to throw themselves round more while V/M are more precise with their movements (you can certainly tell that Tessa did, and was very good at, ballet when she was younger). This is why I prefer V/M, even though I wasn't overly fond of either of their music selections this past season. Also, every time I see a D/W performance I can't help but wonder how many times she must whack him in the face with her hair. . . that sort of distracts me from their skating too

Music selection does play an integral role in skating. However, I don't want these teams to play it safe and just choose a popular piece of music. That just kills creativity. Coaches, choreographers and skaters need to think outside the box and introduce us to new music etc and not keep re-hashing the warhorses.

P.S. I am not exactly singing the music selections from Funny Face in the shower either, LOL!

I agree with most posters - Meryl and Charlie did have better music choices. Though I think the SD really favours V and M because for a top team you usually except if their brother and sister expect them to do romantic and passion but I don't get that with D and W. However, I still can see how V and M won. And believe it or not some of us have no idea what Funny Face is about; we barely know who Audrey or Fred are - thank goodness for wikipedia

Oh as for Meryl and her hair - I hope people aren't suggesting Davis and White getting away from the warhorse songs should do the hair whip it song.

Skater Boy said:

I agree with most posters - Meryl and Charlie did have better music choices. Though I think the SD really favours V and M because for a top team you usually except if their brother and sister expect them to do romantic and passion but I don't get that with D and W. However, I still can see how V and M won. And believe it or not some of us have no idea what Funny Face is about; we barely know who Audrey or Fred are - thank goodness for wikipedia

Oh as for Meryl and her hair - I hope people aren't suggesting Davis and White getting away from the warhorse songs should do the hair whip it song.

Click to expand...

No the Hair Whip it song would belong to Klimova period...LOL...

I really enjoy both of these teams (and many others so, so much) and I find it impossible to say who I think won or should win (with the exception of something like the GPF with Scott's very unusual mistake in the SD). But, I have to admit that FF was not a program that I emotionally connected to - I did appreciate it intellectually and was just astounded by their movement and timing and liked the red dress/black suit thing a lot. But, D/W captured me emotionally with their FD. I had this feeling this year that I wanted V/M to win GPF to have that title and D/W to win Worlds to win in a year that V/M skated the whole season so that there would be no footnote to their title - then it would really be like they are super tied, let's see what happens next year. But alas, that didn't happen, but still - they are both so evenly if differently matched that I am amazed and really look forward to what they bring next season.

I am also super excited about W/P and a few other teams....it will be interesting to see what they all do, but especially the top two given the recent coaching shifts.

dorispulaski said:

That might make sense, except that at the WTT, the same two teams skated in virtually the same way in the FD, except that V&M skated a little better than at Worlds at WTT, D&W skated a little worse than at Worlds at WTT, and they received exactly the opposite result from the judges.

Both teams are very, very good indeed, and overall, very closely matched. But I do think that these teams both have strong and weak points, and, as it happens, several of the strong points of one team are the weak points of the other. I feel that is one reason why D&W and V&M are the cause of so many "Tastes great" vs "Less filling" type arguments in the fan community.

Judges are people like the rest of us; they have their own opinions about what is most important in ice dance. Consequently, it is possible to create panels of judges that will give inconsistent results judging teams that are nearly equal, just as we saw at WTT and Worlds, without having to invoke conspiracy theories involving Russia.

And before you ask, judging panels & technical panels are appointed by Speedy himself, with the advice of the ISU VP of figure skating, David Dore, former head of Skate Canada, and typically the president of the location where the event is held is consulted as well (in the case of Worlds, Didier Gailhaguet former co-conspirator in the 2002 Olympic judging scandals, and in the case of WTT, the head of JSF whose name I don't know)

In my own case, I make no claims of impartiality, but I do try to give all teams their due, and I like most all dance teams, and am grateful to them all for providing me with so much enjoyment. I do however occasionally either love a program or detest a program.

This year I far preferred D&W's FD to V&M's FD, mostly because I have hated the music of Funny Face since I was a small child. IMO, neither Fred Astaire nor Audrey Hepburn were good singers. Age did not improve Fred in this respect either. Also, I detest hearing the English language distorted & tortured to make a rhyme or a meter come out right, and S'Marvelous is a hymn to that kind of practice. I also really do not prefer FD's with a lot of posing & facial mugging in them, and especially at the beginning of the year, Funny Face was like that. I do respect how hard V&M worked to improve FF, but at the end of the year, I was very glad to see it go, and eagerly await what they will chose to skate to next year; it's got to be something I like better, because I could hardly like FF much less, as a program.

There is a reason that a team of fine skaters, like Tessa & Scott, couldn't get the kind of standing ovations they normally get with Funny Face. I'm not alone out there in disliking that program.

However, that should not affect the judges, but judges are people too.

Click to expand...

I am with you on Funny Face. A reason why I didn't like V/M's program this year is because I REALLY don't like the movie and the music. I love Audrey Hepburn but find this movie my least favorite in which she starred- I thought it was quite pointless. However, I think Virtue said they picked this music because Funny Face is one of her favorites. Of course, each has his own opinion.

skateluvr said:

My simple question to those who know ice dance or any skaters is, was the Fd of D/W significantly more difficult than other top teams's programs, V/M in particular? It is very time consuming to wade through pages of as it happened comments from the Worlds folder to get a consensus from those who know more than I re ID and the system. (Everyone, LOL).

Click to expand...

Reminder, everyone, to please keep it civil. V/M vs D/W can get very heated, as we've seen since we've asked this question before. Of course, the reason why we ask and answer this question over and over again is because there are times when our opinions change, because the teams' skating changes. Keep it civil, everyone, and if you need to, feel free to refer to the old pages for some of the fascinating responses people gave there.

I'd say the simple answer to skateluvr's simple question is ... No , D/W's FD was not significantly more difficult than the other top couples , if at all.

On paper, W/P's was right up there, too, and probably more programs as well ( don't have time to check ). It's all down to style , execution on the day , music preferences , etc ..so it's really not that simple .

all that said:

Doris is not an unbiased fan. Most fans are not.

D/W's FD did win in most of its outings this year. It lost at 4CC's, probably due to the altitude + Charlie's asthma. It lost at Worlds, but then won at World Team Trophy. I'd say the two programs were even, and the outcome depended on the way the programs were performed that day.

You may also find this helpful: http://ice-dance.com/events/event-c...4-2012-worlds-free-dance-recap-by-the-numbers

Click to expand...

great link, great replies thanks all..gs is tops.

all that said:

Doris is not an unbiased fan. Most fans are not.

D/W's FD did win in most of its outings this year. It lost at 4CC's, probably due to the altitude + Charlie's asthma. It lost at Worlds, but then won at World Team Trophy. I'd say the two programs were even, and the outcome depended on the way the programs were performed that day.

You may also find this helpful: http://ice-dance.com/events/event-c...4-2012-worlds-free-dance-recap-by-the-numbers

Click to expand...

V/M and D/W competed against each other 4 times in the season: GPF, 4CC, Worlds, and WTT. At the GPF, FF barely squeaked ahead of DF, with V/M not having their best outing. (The ISU came out later and announced that V/M had won the FD portion, after noticing a software/system calculation error.) FF won both 4CC and Worlds. It wasn't until the WTT that DF finished ahead.

It should be interesting to see what happens in this coming season. How do V/M plan to push the envelope this year? What will D/W choose for music and style? I think V/M will be looking for their last World Championship at home, in their home town. The next stop after that would be the Olympics, trying to repeat, and then retire. That's my guess. So it should be interesting to see what direction they take. And how will the coaching changes impact both V/M and D/W? Will they find a solid tech coach? It will be an interesting season, I think.