Comebacks: Ando, Kim, Plushenko, Weir, etc.

pangtongfan said:

Your posts are always good for a huge laugh. I honestly dont think you are crazy so I will just presume you are purposely going out of your way to be comical. Just like your posts before this season proclaiming the Shibutanis were a lock to medal at every Worlds until 2018, and a lock to medal at the 2014 Olympics, medal at the 2012 Worlds, win the 2018 Olympics, possibly winning both the 2014 and 2018 Olympics. I should have known then you were a bot looking to just make people laugh.

Evan won the 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics since the level of skating was so low. He won without a quad since there wasnt anyone who both had a quad and wasnt falling or stumbling all over the ice, or whose overall skating wasnt total rubbage (Van Der Perren, even Vancouver version of Plushenko). Evan at his best was scoring over 160 points. Chan at his best scores over 200 points, and with major falls and errors scores over 180. Even with a quad Evan couldnt come close to Chan unless Chan skates half the program on his rear, and I am no Chan fan. Chan does everything better than Evan now, even if he werent doing quads, so how can Evan compete with him. Takahashi skating his best would easily beat Evan even with quads too, never mind without, and Hanyu is pulling in huge TES from the judges and inflated PCS. Evans Vancouver LP, in a competition that clearly had inflated scoring as Yu Nas scores and the mens short program scores reflects, were much lower than 3 men from Worlds last year. The field isnt going to start getting weaker. A skater who struggles with both quads and triple axels and waves his arm like a windmall isnt going to win titles just by virtue of not falling anymore. Unless he shows up with things he never had before, not just quads, he wont even be a contender, and will be fighting just to get out of a weak U.S mens field.

Click to expand...

I did not think the Shibutani's would forget how to twizzle! LOL. Their performance at 2012 worlds was bizarre because it was such an extreme technical failure. But even being an extreme technical failure that did not include a twizzle in a FS they still did not collapse in the standings. They made it to the GPF and things were basically going well until worlds where they forgot how to twizzle.

People believed quads would be important to win in Vancouver. They were not. They were irrelevent to winning the Olympics. Totally meaningless and Lysacek won. I would not underestimate Lysacek and the ways COP can be worked for his advantage that maybe other people don't see. Maybe if you structure a program a certain way quads might be irrelevent to skating again. Lots of things are worth more in skating now. Step sequences. 3A is worth some more points. PCS is rising almost to max levels and Lysacek was good at getting high PCS and with the PCS inflation of recent years maybe his scores will rise with the PCS and 3A and other things.

I thought there was a good chance of a quadless champion in Vancouver, and it could have been any of Lysacek, Chan, Oda, or a number of others. As I said who was doing quads who didnt suck overall as a skater. Only an old Plushenko who was skating awful programs and clearly poorly prepared, although he still would have won if he didnt struggle to hold onto every jump in his long program.

Today there is no chance of a quadless champion. The caliber of skating is way too high for that. For a skater to hope for the Sochi gold it would require atleast 3 quads, 2 in the long, 1 in the short, tremendous presentation, superior to what Evan has ever had in fact, top quality elements on all of jumps, spins, and footwork, and Chan falling atleast twice, probably more.

pangtongfan said:

Today there is no chance of a quadless champion. The caliber of skating is way too high for that. For a skater to hope for the Sochi gold it would require atleast 3 quads, 2 in the long, 1 in the short, tremendous presentation, superior to what Evan has ever had in fact, top quality elements on all of jumps, spins, and footwork, and Chan falling atleast twice, probably more.

Click to expand...

I think this is reasonable until the second last comma. Lysacek, at his best, is only competitive with the second half of the top 10 in the world now. But I think if he really shows up at SA, he should be competitive there. In US, the "successful comeback" title should belong to Lysacek if both he and Weir really come back.

welcome back and good luck

ok, well anyway, Evan is such a hard worker, I think he will be competitive as he is consistent and does not suffer from nerves at the big events. I think the judges will have their other favorites. For sentimental Oly champ, Evgeni can expect points if he does well. He doesn't need to be fantastic, just good, to be overscored on home turf. This will hurt Evan as returning OGM. And now the judges have others they wish to reward. Expect inflation to continue. He does not have to be stupendous to win, just do what he normally does. He is the favorite and he if healthy does well later in season. He is hard to beat, nearly impossible, really. But anything can happen. The other US men do not have nerves of steel. Rippon and Abbott should be on world podiums with their beautiful skating, but are chokers. Johnny Weir never does in competition what he can do 80% in practice. Look for Johnny to have some fave points if he makes the US to Sochi team. That would be huge for him. I dont expect Weir to hold up under Oly pressure and changing his style and choreo to CoP will be hard. It is like destroying the beautiful basics that judges like him for (and everyone else). Yuna with the two hardest 3x3 combinations should win again, if she is in Vancouver form. Only the Russians and maybe Mao will challenge. I'd like to say Ashley could, but she does not have the speed, nor Yuna's huge fully rotated (usually) jumps. So Yuna in top form could do this, if she is training hard.

I expect to see a Russian male and female on podium for sure. If Evgeni's body gives our, Artur will likely be a political bronze if he skates very well. I don't think Miki does well with Olympic pressure, and Mao needs to have the right vehicles this time. Right now I put my money on Yuna and Chan for gold. But Tut or one of the surging Russian teens may knock her out. It is great to see these people back if only at nationals. More fun for us. I wonder if Ashley can keep up her streak onward and upward and not fall apart at her first Oly if she does get there. Gracie Gold has so much hype, but she might peak around Sochi. She needs a lot of polishing to go with the jumping prowess to be a big event medalist. Can't wait to see her this season.

pangtongfan said:

I thought there was a good chance of a quadless champion in Vancouver, and it could have been any of Lysacek, Chan, Oda, or a number of others. As I said who was doing quads who didnt suck overall as a skater. Only an old Plushenko who was skating awful programs and clearly poorly prepared, although he still would have won if he didnt struggle to hold onto every jump in his long program.

Today there is no chance of a quadless champion. The caliber of skating is way too high for that. For a skater to hope for the Sochi gold it would require atleast 3 quads, 2 in the long, 1 in the short, tremendous presentation, superior to what Evan has ever had in fact, top quality elements on all of jumps, spins, and footwork, and Chan falling atleast twice, probably more.

Click to expand...

How did leans in the air on two jumps turn into problems on every jump for Plushenko? LOL! He had the highest standard of jumping at the Vancouver Olympics. No one at the Olympics matched his jumping talent!

Judges thought the last time he competed Lysacek was the best in the world and gave him a prize that means one of the best of all time. They think his caliber of skating is amazing and gold medal at the Olympics worthy.

gmyers said:

How did leans in the air on two jumps turn into problems on every jump for Plushenko? LOL! He had the highest standard of jumping at the Vancouver Olympics. No one at the Olympics matched his jumping talent!

Judges thought the last time he competed Lysacek was the best in the world and gave him a prize that means one of the best of all time. They think his caliber of skating is amazing and gold medal at the Olympics worthy.

Click to expand...

I seriously cant stop laughing at your posts. I am going to give myself a break from reading them before I give myself a rib injury from laughing so hard.

pangtongfan said:

i seriously cant stop laughing at your posts. I am going to give myself a break from reading them before i give myself a rib injury from laughing so hard.

Click to expand...

ok.

i like your posts gmeyers. Fangtong, must you be so denigrating to other posters? I tire of your insults. It seems trolllish to me and hurts the discussion. We are people here, and anonymity shouldn't make you forget civility.

skateluvr said:

i like your posts gmeyers. Fangtong, must you be so denigrating to other posters? I tire of your insults. It seems trolllish to me and hurts the discussion. We are people here, and anonymity shouldn't make you forget civility.

Click to expand...

Thanks! Right back to you!

No problem. We can be spirited but we must be civil and kind as we all have different knowledge, backrounds etc. I have not always been PC about a skater. I often say how I really feel within reason and defending underdogs (or not) but what makes the forum fun is not just knowledge shared, showing off one's memory skills, or CoP knowledge, but making freinds and the camerarderie. We have "safe" threads we are asked to respect, and we have or should fiery discussions because we are all very different. I enjoy your posts a lot pangtong. You are acidic, and funny at times but denigrating other posters makes people AFRAID to post as the thought becomes, I am next. I don't believe in tattling to a busy mod at my age...it seems it should be reserved for real infractions. I just wish people will be kind to me when due to memory injury I am not the best CoP scorekeeper. GS has enough numbers folks anyway, much easier to ask.

Can you tell I am or was long before major catastrophe a social worker? Long ago, but it never leaves. I hope I have not annoyed a mod. It is best I guess to complain to them, but I'd rather see us have good threads that don't get shut down for silly reasons. The season is coming, and I invite you both to the very freindly Oly threads. We all, tho small in number have enjoyed different sports due to freindly camerarderie, not expertise.

I am in a lot of pain from shingles not departing, so I come to GS for fun and learning. I am sure my open ness or religiosity (in the proper forum) might annoy someone, but if I ever brusque due to pain/fatigue making me short with abreviation or just not using the smiley emoticons that help conversation go better, please pm me. I have no problem with being corrected re a skater history or ability (I welcome it) but i can't promise I will never criticize a skater you adore. I think we older gen posters are beyond adoration and accept almost all comments, but we are asked to be civil (and I ask for higher standards-kind/helpful/supportive) than the guidelines.

Just return the favor some day gmeyers. With a certain amazing skater coming back, so will the out of body ubers, so there will be tough days. I like skater x, but also her rival, skater y. This is a huge problem for young ubers who might come from Ireland where they have their one beloved skater. They see any criticism as trollish and they are young. So with season coming maybe we can do some resolutions...I have a thread idea.

skateluvr said:

Artur will likely be a political bronze if he skates very well.

Click to expand...

I expect many many posts like that during Sochi cause no other Federation other than Russian is strong enough to be politiking but you what? He could actually take bronze and deserve it.

gmyers said:

How did leans in the air on two jumps turn into problems on every jump for Plushenko? LOL! He had the highest standard of jumping at the Vancouver Olympics. No one at the Olympics matched his jumping talent!

Click to expand...

Hmm, he had leans on 4 jumps - both of the Lutzes, the Loop, and one of the Triple Axels. That Axel and the second Lutz additionally had minor problems on the landings. Yes, he was still definitely the best in terms of jumps in 2010, but it was far from his best. I feel there are skaters who were overall better than him at that competition, despite deserving less points on the jumps. Of course, Evan Lysacek was not one of them. :sarcasm:

I wonder why Evan is truly coming back? He is pretty confident; I thought he should be lucky he has a World And olympic title. He is a fighter and competitor but his skating does not compare with the Japanese men or even Patrick Chan. I will be curious if he truly can land quads or is that showboating? It is hard competing though against a man in Vera Wang - like thousand of dollars I guess for his outfit.

DianaSelene said:

You know why? Because Plushenko is NOT Chan and Takahashi. Different skaters, different styles, different transitions. Surprise!

Click to expand...

Yes, of course they are different skaters, but Takahashi and Chan are doing transitions which deserve high PCS score, Plushenko is not.

Maybe you missed these opinions:

Stojko :
"If you take out a quad, it makes the whole program at least 50% easier to do."

Chan:
"I kind of took the side that if you did a clean program without the quad you can still win and you can be comfortable." "But to be honest, it’s a whole different level to be doing quads, a whole different level of confidence."
"I understand now. I’m on the other side of the wall. It’s a level of excitement I’m talking about. You just elevate your program to that level of excitement where everyone else who has done quads, like Plushenko, has that excitement."

Christy Krall: "The quad four revolution : you need up to 300 pounds of centrifugal force to hold in their arms and legs when they jump, And when they come down, the force on the landing leg is up to 8 à 14 times their body weight,.. punishing their bone, muscles, tendons…"

But Evan wasn't perfect. Evan did mistakes-which are not visible to non-specialists, the European and Asien experts saw them, and they have told it in media.

Jaana said:

Yes, of course they are different skaters, but Takahashi and Chan are doing transitions which deserve high PCS score, Plushenko is not.

Click to expand...

Oh , really? Look at this!

http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2012/ec2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Are you Finnish? Laura Lepisto's twitt, after Plushy 's skating in Sheffield

https://twitter.com/#!/LauraLepisto/status/163285031467487232
@LauraLepisto　Simply holding my breath after watching Plushenko's free program... Wow.

plushyfan said:

Oh , really? Look at this!

http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2012/ec2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Are you Finnish? Laura Lepisto's twitt, after Plushy 's skating in Sheffield

https://twitter.com/#!/LauraLepisto/status/163285031467487232
@LauraLepisto　Simply holding my breath after watching Plushenko's free program... Wow.

Click to expand...

Scores Plushenko got at Europeans were ridiculously inflated. The fact he got 8s for transitions doesn't mean he deserved them! Just compare what he does between his elements with Chan's or Dai's programs. The difference is really visible as long as you can distinguish between Plushenko's crossovers and Chan's complex and intricate footwork...

Bartek said:

Scores Plushenko got at Europeans were ridiculously inflated. The fact he got 8s for transitions doesn't mean he deserved them! Just compare what he does between his elements with Chan's or Dai's programs. The difference is really visible as long as you can distinguish between Plushenko's crossovers and Chan's complex and intricate footwork...

Click to expand...

Maybe. I don't know, I'm not expert, and I'm not judge. But "Chan's complex and intricate footwork" is too boring for me, or sometimes I'm got nervous because of it. And not to mention, he often fall in his "complex and intricate" footwork. But i don't know exactly the level of his footwork. Dai is great.

Blades of Passion said:

Hmm, he had leans on 4 jumps - both of the Lutzes, the Loop, and one of the Triple Axels. That Axel and the second Lutz additionally had minor problems on the landings. Yes, he was still definitely the best in terms of jumps in 2010, but it was far from his best. I feel there are skaters who were overall better than him at that competition, despite deserving less points on the jumps. Of course, Evan Lysacek was not one of them. :sarcasm:

Click to expand...

Since this dead horse keeps suffering, if I recall your podium was

1. Takahashi
2. Kozuka
3. Plushenko or Wier (I think you felt Wier at the time, but I also know you thought Plushenko's jump difficulty might have been enough). Correct?

plushyfan, I'm not a Plushenko fan but even I was amazed by his Sheffield LP - the sheer competitive vigour alone is astonishing. But no, that was nowhere near the complexity of what Chan or Takahashi (or Abbott on his best days) does.

Obviously, if you're bored by the more complex stuff, you're bored by it. Others are bored by the stand-and-pose aspect of Plushenko's skating. Others are bored by Chan's lack of showmanship. We're all attracted to figure skating for different reasons, and each top skater has their own unique skill sets that we respond to (or not).

But Chan's footwork is sick. The footwork to his Take Five SP might be the most difficult ever.