Pechalat and Bourzat find their groove

ImaginaryPogue · Sep 8, 2012

Actually, I'm very curious about CoC. W/P will be on their THIRD international event at that point, P/B their first. W/P, with judging feedback and closer understanding of the level concerns, should be outpointing them by now. P/B should catch up of course: the GPF will be telling.

clairecloutier · Sep 9, 2012

It'll be interesting to see what happens this season. I don't know if W/P are a "lock" for bronze just because Worlds are in Canada. Yes it improves their chances, but if it were to happen, and V/M and D/W continue as #1 and #2, that would mean another all-North American podium, which would be controversial. I think that, more than homecourt advantage, what works in W/P's favor is many people feel they should have won the bronze in both 2011 *and* 2012, so there's a feeling they're overdue.

We shall see. As usual, I think a lot will depend on the programs. I have my doubts about W/P's approach this year. They said they decided on the style of dance (contemporary) before choosing music. That feels like a rather academic approach. To me, the program should be inspired by the music, rather than the music serving as a vehicle for the dance. But, it may be great; we won't know till we see it.

I do agree that P/B may have peaked. But it's clear they have many supporters in the judging/international community. For those who want to see a European team on the podium, P/B are the standardbearers. I think they will continue as such and will continue to be a factor internationally until another European team convincingly passes them. Many think I/K or B/S will be that team, but I'm not too certain.

Buttercup · Sep 9, 2012

eyria said:
It'll be interesting to see what happens this season. I don't know if W/P are a "lock" for bronze just because Worlds are in Canada. Yes it improves their chances, but if it were to happen, and V/M and D/W continue as #1 and #2, that would mean another all-North American podium, which would be controversial. I think that, more than homecourt advantage, what works in W/P's favor is many people feel they should have won the bronze in both 2011 *and* 2012, so there's a feeling they're overdue.

We shall see. As usual, I think a lot will depend on the programs. I have my doubts about W/P's approach this year. They said they decided on the style of dance (contemporary) before choosing music. That feels like a rather academic approach. To me, the program should be inspired by the music, rather than the music serving as a vehicle for the dance. But, it may be great; we won't know till we see it.

I do agree that P/B may have peaked. But it's clear they have many supporters in the judging/international community. For those who want to see a European team on the podium, P/B are the standardbearers. I think they will continue as such and will continue to be a factor internationally until another European team convincingly passes them. Many think I/K or B/S will be that team, but I'm not too certain.

I agree; being the top Europeans can only help Nathalie and Fabian, and at the moment the Russian teams are not at their level.

I realize that a lot of people were impressed with W/P's Je Suis Malade (I thought it was overwrought, but to each their own), and they are a team on the way up - but they still have work to do. I don't think they were robbed in 2012; P/B were better. I have repressed all memories of 2011 so I can't say if the Shibs should have come out ahead. Meanwhile, it's worth remembering that none of the top teams faced as many challenges as P/B did last year (well, possibly V/M, one never knows how truthful they are re Tessa's health). P/B had a forced coaching and location change in the off-season, were quite unlucky with their GP assignments, then Fabian got bronchitis - which was no help to their GP performances - and then Nathalie's broken nose before Worlds. That they were able to keep skating at a high standard despite all that is a testament to their strength, and I think that's something people should keep in mind.

Re W/P, I think they are still in search of their identity as performers - though in all fairness, that can be said of quite a few teams.

ImaginaryPogue · Sep 9, 2012

I'm not gonna say W/P were robbed, bu the points gap was much larger than it should've been. Their PCS were staggeringly high for what was a solid but not spectacular skate (they were shaky in the SD). And while I recognze that we should be somewhat sympathetic to their season, I'm gonna argue that the judges were equally sympathetic and it showed in the marking.

This past season really does feel like a breakthrough for W/P the way the 08/09 "Samson and Delilah" season was for D/W, and we know where that went.

Buttercup · Sep 9, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
I'm not gonna say W/P were robbed, bu the points gap was much larger than it should've been. Their PCS were staggeringly high for what was a solid but not spectacular skate (they were shaky in the SD). And while I recognze that we should be somewhat sympathetic to their season, I'm gonna argue that the judges were equally sympathetic and it showed in the marking.

I was thinking more along the lines of, if they peaked they did so despite facing some challenging circumstances - hopefully they'll have fewer difficulties from here on out.

Dance PCS are generally too high across the board... people like Dai, Patrick Chan, S/S and Carolina Kostner can only watch and weep. And anyway the judges owed P/B, they were underrated for years and didn't really get much love until they were the official French number 1s.

This past season really does feel like a breakthrough for W/P the way the 08/09 "Samson and Delilah" season was for D/W, and we know where that went.

So W/P will become an overscored team with ugly-but-difficult lifts and boring FD music?

gmyers · Sep 9, 2012

There is just a wild overestimation of the Russian teams technical abilities. Maybe I/K didn't try that hard at WTT but they did very poor - which was not so far off from some of their GP event appearences. And B/S came in last in the GPF because of TES. I/K still have the same coaches but B/S have changed coaches so maybe things will change. But I definitely see P/B staying ahead of the Russian teams even if they fall behind W/P and S/S as US team number 2 can be very close and was certainly ahead of B/S in the GP in 2011.

All North American Ice Dance podiums at worlds in 2013 and Olympics 2014 is very very likely because that is where things are happening in a positive direction for Ice Dance and where the most talent is. Weaver and Poje were in the Shibutani position in 2012 worlds but P/B did not make a mistake. I think judges like in 2011 would have been very happy to have an all North American podium. The Sochi Olympics are almost guaranteed to have all North American podium.

clairecloutier · Sep 9, 2012

gmyers said:
There is just a wild overestimation of the Russian teams technical abilities. Maybe I/K didn't try that hard at WTT but they did very poor - which was not so far off from some of their GP event appearences. And B/S came in last in the GPF because of TES. I/K still have the same coaches but B/S have changed coaches so maybe things will change. But I definitely see P/B staying ahead of the Russian teams even if they fall behind W/P and S/S as US team number 2 can be very close and was certainly ahead of B/S in the GP in 2011.

I very much agree with this. That's why I feel P/B will remain the top European team, at least for a while. The Russian teams would have to improve pretty dramatically in TES to pass P/B, and I just will be surprised if that happens.

gmyers · Sep 9, 2012

eyria said:
I very much agree with this. That's why I feel P/B will remain the top European team, at least for a while. The Russian teams would have to improve pretty dramatically in TES to pass P/B, and I just will be surprised if that happens.

Me too and I forgot to mention that even with I/K getting 5th at worlds it was just barely ahead of Cappelini nand Lanotte so there is every possibility that Euro order could be P/B, CL, then russian teams.

heyhey · Sep 9, 2012

gmyers said:
Me too and I forgot to mention that even with I/K getting 5th at worlds it was just barely ahead of Cappelini nand Lanotte so there is every possibility that Euro order could be P/B, CL, then russian teams.

Great discussion - this year will be interesting to say the least. No comments from Canada's high performance camp for W/P's free dance - which is suppose to be a departure for them. V/M and C/L both doing Carmen and going head to head early in the season. No FD announcement from D/W yet. Just saw that I/K are injured (on fsu) and will be missing russian skates this week...the Shibs who will be skating to Memoirs of a Geisha -music that they previously skated to...however I do think this year the SD will play an even more deciding factor in terms of who comes in third...until we see the SD programs this year with the Polka, 3rd place is a toss-up...

ETA: With W/P - one of the reasons they were successful last year was that it was their first year where they were consistent throughout the year. If the consistency remains this year - we may be looking at a North American podium for Sochi....my two cents...but then we have to factor in the "Igor" politicking....

colleen o'neill · Sep 9, 2012

Well, I love C/L and everyone knows it by now..but while there may be 2 Carmens at Finlandia..there is no real head to head competition between the two couples..and I have to say, I've had a bit of a sinking feeling about the number of program "coincidences" C/L have had in the last few years...If it's a tactic ( and I don't know if it is )..but if it is , I think they can only lose in the comparison.

I'm really nervous about the SDs now that Doris has pointed out that the judges have no sound playback.. yet they're going to make more of an issue of timing than previously ?..not a promising scenario..

I truly don't know what to think about P/B's programs...I'm not being thrilled with anticipation. And no , I don't think their marks were justified at last year's worlds, in light of the performances they delivered.

In spite of last year's travails , for me, their year of really horrendous bad luck was 2011... They had just a fabulous presentation..the two programs, the costumes..I thought all year they should have been a shoo-in for a medal..then , disaster. :eek:

Their last year's programs, I thought ,were a step backwards..and just on paper , I can't feel that this year's presentation is an improvement.

Of course everything comes down to execution , I guess.. But I'm sure not excited by the prospect , so far.

ImaginaryPogue · Sep 9, 2012

Buttercup said:
I was thinking more along the lines of, if they peaked they did so despite facing some challenging circumstances - hopefully they'll have fewer difficulties from here on out.

That's fair, but I'm gonna point out that they're the oldest team. No, being entirely unsure of the relative injury status of all the skater, I think they'll be MORE likely to have injuries than anyone else (we're not gonna know the full truth re: Virtue until after they retire, but based on public reports...). Heck, they had two health scares this past season.

Dance PCS are generally too high across the board... people like Dai, Patrick Chan, S/S and Carolina Kostner can only watch and weep. And anyway the judges owed P/B, they were underrated for years and didn't really get much love until they were the official French number 1s.

Also probably true, though even within that stanine, I still say they were massively overscored.

So W/P will become an overscored team with ugly-but-difficult lifts and boring FD music?

Yep. They plan on doing a mash-up of Requiem for a Dream and The Passion Begins for the Olympic season.

Less cavalierly, I actually think they're being quite daring with their choice of music/program next season. They had boring FD music in the past, though, with Phantom of the Opera and Moulin Rouge (and while I love the music, "Blues for Klook").

colleen o'neill said:
Well, I love C/L and everyone knows it by now..but while there may be 2 Carmens at Finlandia..there is no real head to head competition between the two couples..and I have to say, I've had a bit of a sinking feeling about the number of program "coincidences" C/L have had in the last few years...If it's a tactic ( and I don't know if it is )..but if it is , I think they can only lose in the comparison.

How so? They chose "Love Story" (boring, but not a real copy), La Traviata, Requiem for a Dream (the year EVERYONE did - and they had the best one). They did do Umbrellas of Cherbourg, but recall they CHANGED to it after NHK and bombing that competition (she had a knee injury, apparently, but they called that program they're least favourite that they've skated). And yeah, La Strada, but I think the comparison works for them their, not against. Carmen has a lot of baggage, not least of which we're having competing coaches now. I don't think it's a tactic.

I'm really nervous about the SDs now that Doris has pointed out that the judges have no sound playback.. yet they're going to make more of an issue of timing than previously ?..not a promising scenario..

It'll be interesting, but timing should be the key component to a successful compulsory sequence that I don't mind too much.

dorispulaski · Sep 10, 2012

If you need voids, Buttercup, have you checked out Baturintseva's and Neskiy's SD

I've got to say, I haven't ever seen someone skate to Weird Al Yankovic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnHm_ajSHcY

And there is an issue with health & age, always. Whatever befalls you, it heals a bit slower as you get older. It's why my husband quit playing recreational hockey. He was a goalie, and was always get bruises & various other minor injuries. A bruise that would have healed in a day or two in his 20's was still sore in 5 days in his 30's. It just gets harder.

Tonichelle · Sep 10, 2012

dorispulaski said:
If you need voids, Buttercup, have you checked out Baturintseva's and Neskiy's SD
I've got to say, I haven't ever seen someone skate to Weird Al Yankovic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnHm_ajSHcY

And there is an issue with health & age, always. Whatever befalls you, it heals a bit slower as you get older. It's why my husband quit playing recreational hockey. He was a goalie, and was always get bruises & various other minor injuries. A bruise that would have healed in a day or two in his 20's was still sore in 5 days in his 30's. It just gets harder.

I thought "Voidy" was supposed to be for "weird in a good way" type programs (I don't speak FSU very well, I admit)???? :laugh:

dorispulaski · Sep 10, 2012

Given that both colleen and Buttercup thought the topic of strategy in picking music in dance deserved its own thread, I have moved the posts on that topic to a new thread in The Edge.

Hopefully this thread will mostly discuss P&B's interview and their new programs..but it's OK if you want to do something different..

Binthere · Sep 11, 2012

Pretty impressive how strongly they are still going amidst a field of competitors considerably younger. Natalie will be 29 and Fabian 32 in December. Ice dance as a discipline seemed to traditionally have competitors at their age and still be reliably at the top. I think once the Kerr's retired, that left no other teams competing into their 30s.

Most of the girls at the top now are 22 to 26 years old, and guys 23 to 27.

Looking at ages, was surprised to see that Weaver and Poje are both older than Virtue and Moir. Both teams have been competing at the senior level for the same number of years.

The babies in the field are obviously Elena/Nikita and Maia/Alex. Both girls 18, boys 21 with Maia the youngest. Will be the 2024 season should those teams keep going as long as Natalie and Fabian.

Buttercup · Sep 12, 2012

Binthere said:
Pretty impressive how strongly they are still going amidst a field of competitors considerably younger. Natalie will be 29 and Fabian 32 in December. Ice dance as a discipline seemed to traditionally have competitors at their age and still be reliably at the top. I think once the Kerr's retired, that left no other teams competing into their 30s.

Most of the girls at the top now are 22 to 26 years old, and guys 23 to 27.

Looking at ages, was surprised to see that Weaver and Poje are both older than Virtue and Moir. Both teams have been competing at the senior level for the same number of years.

The babies in the field are obviously Elena/Nikita and Maia/Alex. Both girls 18, boys 21 with Maia the youngest. Will be the 2024 season should those teams keep going as long as Natalie and Fabian.

Sometimes this is the result of when teams get together. V/M and D/W have been together since they were practically babies, and the Shibs teamed up young, too. When P/B were 18/21, they were still in juniors, having only teamed up two years earlier. The Kerrs started skating together at ages 22/20, I think, and John only switched to ice dance when he was 17 - with that in mind, it's impressive that they got as far as they did, especially with such a small height difference. How long have W/P been together, is it six years?

While early success at the junior/senior level is good, there is something to be said for taking a longer path to the top, as happened with P/B - it allows teams more time to experiment artistically without the same degree of pressure that top teams face. I wouldn't advocate a return to the "wait your turn" days, but I think it's good to still have a mix of younger and older teams at the elite level. And the more recent mature teams have generally been ones that I enjoyed - e.g. DelSchoes, F/S, the Kerrs, Savchenko/Szolkowy in pairs.

Skater Boy · Sep 12, 2012

Forget W and P and the Russians; P and B could be overtaken by the Italians who seem to have the edge on the Russians but barely. In a way I feel these teams - Pand B , W and P, the Italians, Russians and heck even the up and coming Americans should take turn winning bronze for now.I do feel that P and B have had their moment in the sun - they had two chances and literally let 2011 slip from their fingers. W and P are not a lock nor are P and B for bronze at world. I still think Canada and US will be 1 and 2. The short dance will be interesting as it is possible the first two teams might not get all the nuances and rules and could slip up enough for the other teams to take the lead or move up on them though i anticipate the freedance will favour D and W and V and M.

ice coverage · Sep 14, 2012

Nathalie & Fabian ‏@PechalatBourzat

Changement de club : 1.000 merci au club de Castres ( le CSG Castres): à tous ces dirigeants et licenciés :... http://fb.me/1hyjIeL7A
3:53 PM - 14 Sep 12

The link they tweeted says:

Nathalie PECHALAT & Fabian BOURZAT aux FRANÇAIS VOLANTS !!!

Double champion d'Europe (2011 et 2012), médaillé de bronze au championnat du Monde 2012, Nathalie et Fabian ont choisi de se licencier dans notre club.
Basés au ETATS-UNIS ils seront régulièrement présents à la patinoire Sonja HENIE.
Leur premier passage aura lieu le mercredi 3 octobre et jeudi 4 octobre.
Nathalie et Fabian participeront ensuite aux Master's à ORLEANS ou ils représenteront les Français Volants pour la 1ere fois.
Bienvenue à eux et bonne chance pour cette saison.

I don't speak French, but "Changement de club" sounds noteworthy. Are they announcing anything of significance?

gmyers · Sep 14, 2012

Skater Boy said:
Forget W and P and the Russians; P and B could be overtaken by the Italians who seem to have the edge on the Russians but barely. In a way I feel these teams - Pand B , W and P, the Italians, Russians and heck even the up and coming Americans should take turn winning bronze for now.I do feel that P and B have had their moment in the sun - they had two chances and literally let 2011 slip from their fingers. W and P are not a lock nor are P and B for bronze at world. I still think Canada and US will be 1 and 2. The short dance will be interesting as it is possible the first two teams might not get all the nuances and rules and could slip up enough for the other teams to take the lead or move up on them though i anticipate the freedance will favour D and W and V and M.

I think everything will work out like it has the past 2 years with the main teams of DW and VM getting it all right and there being some struggle between teams who becomes the main challenger to PB for third. Like in 2011 it was the Shibutanis and in 2012 it was WP and in 2013 it might be WP again or C/L or maybe even Shibutanis again. Maybe the worlds ranking will go Davis/White, Virutue/Moir, Weaver/Poje, Pechalt /Bourzat, Capellini/Lanotte/ shibutani/Shibutani, etc etc

golden411 said:
Nathalie & Fabian ‏@PechalatBourzat

Changement de club : 1.000 merci au club de Castres ( le CSG Castres): à tous ces dirigeants et licenciés :... http://fb.me/1hyjIeL7A
3:53 PM - 14 Sep 12

The link they tweeted says:

Nathalie PECHALAT & Fabian BOURZAT aux FRANÇAIS VOLANTS !!!

Double champion d'Europe (2011 et 2012), médaillé de bronze au championnat du Monde 2012, Nathalie et Fabian ont choisi de se licencier dans notre club.
Basés au ETATS-UNIS ils seront régulièrement présents à la patinoire Sonja HENIE.
Leur premier passage aura lieu le mercredi 3 octobre et jeudi 4 octobre.
Nathalie et Fabian participeront ensuite aux Master's à ORLEANS ou ils représenteront les Français Volants pour la 1ere fois.
Bienvenue à eux et bonne chance pour cette saison.

I don't speak French, but "Changement de club" sounds noteworthy. Are they announcing anything of significance?

They are changing what club they belong to in France? It says they are based in the US and this is all France related.

herios · Sep 15, 2012

gmyers said:
They are changing what club they belong to in France? It says they are based in the US and this is all France related.

Correct. They just change their club in France, they represent when skating in France.
From Castres SG to Les Français Volants. Internationally, this has no impact.

Pechalat and Bourzat find their groove

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