Music strategy in Ice Dance

Several posters have suggested in the P&B thread that this topic have its own thread. I'm going to start it here with part of Imaginary Pogue's post, and here's my own start to the thread:

dorispulaski said:

Music strategy in Ice Dance-and other disciplines too if you like



Is there such a thing as strategy-rather than we like this, this suits us, let's skate to it?

Do you regard any teams, past or present, who were good program-picking strategists?

Any who really were bad at it?

I'm stressing here that the strategy I'm talking about isn't whether the team CAN skate to the music, but is the music a good choice strategically, whatever that might mean to you?

Is it a good idea to set up a battle of Carmens, like Witt & Thomas, when two competitors are close in skills, or does it backfire? How about if the competitors are further apart in rankings & public perception (D&W's Polovetsian Dances vs. Domnina & Shabalin's Polovetsian Dances). Did the fact that they were skating to the same music have any discernible effect on the scores of either team?

Toller Cranston used to claim that championships were won and lost when the music was picked, but I always thought he meant something quite different than what people seem to mean by "strategy". I thought he meant that the music was crowd friendly and/or really suited the particular competitor.

The one strategical thing that I would say is that it's a bad idea to be one of about 17 teams skating to the same music - Requiem for a Dream several years ago, and The Artist soundtrack this year.

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Here's what IP had to say:

colleen o'neill said:

Well, I love C/L and everyone knows it by now..but while there may be 2 Carmens at Finlandia..there is no real head to head competition between the two couples..and I have to say, I've had a bit of a sinking feeling about the number of program "coincidences" C/L have had in the last few years...If it's a tactic ( and I don't know if it is )..but if it is , I think they can only lose in the comparison.

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How so? They chose "Love Story" (boring, but not a real copy), La Traviata, Requiem for a Dream (the year EVERYONE did - and they had the best one). They did do Umbrellas of Cherbourg, but recall they CHANGED to it after NHK and bombing that competition (she had a knee injury, apparently, but they called that program they're least favourite that they've skated). And yeah, La Strada, but I think the comparison works for them their, not against. Carmen has a lot of baggage, not least of which we're having competing coaches now. I don't think it's a tactic.

I'm really nervous about the SDs now that Doris has pointed out that the judges have no sound playback.. yet they're going to make more of an issue of timing than previously ?..not a promising scenario..

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It'll be interesting, but timing should be the key component to a successful compulsory sequence that I don't mind too much.

'Pogue...Re; C/L..I really hope it's not a tactic.. and I agree theirs was the best Requiem ( who could blame him for being addicted ? ). I really liked their La Strada ( Even better when she wore the bangs )..but they may have lucked out that D/W gave up on it, so there was no other La Strada on the ice simultaneously. ( We can't know )

I just feel that if it was me , I'd be moving heaven and earth to not be using the same theme and/or music as either V/M or D/W in the same year. Apart from that , I think Anna could make a pretty fetching Carmen .

I'm glad that timing is being brought more into focus, too .. but apprehensive that there's no sound playback , so in iffy cases , there's no double checking.

And while I'm not feeling the excitement for P/B's programs , I definitely am for W/P's. I think you know that I had many of the same problems you did with their past FDs... Until last year , that is. I dare to hope they've really turned a major corner in the FD department and can hardly wait to see what they've done .

IP, you are as always the voice of reason (even if you're wrong about P/B ).

Neither of P/B's health issues last year were really age-related, though.

colleen o'neill said:

Re; C/L..I really hope it's not a tactic.. and I agree theirs was the best Requiem ( who could blame him for being addicted ? ). I really liked their La Strada ( Even better when she wore the bangs )..but they may have lucked out that D/W gave up on it, so there was no other La Strada on the ice simultaneously. ( We can't know )

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IIRC, C/L announced their music choice before D/W did last season. They certainly announced that they were doing Carmen well before V/M's Carmen was official. I thought their La Strada was wonderful and their Requiem was one of my favorite Olympic year programs. I'm sure D/W would have gotten better marks had they done La Strada, but I don't think they necessarily would have been better; it seems a better fit for C/L.

Either way, they're not making groundbreaking music choices, but they're certainly not copying anyone. And I generally feel that the whole staying away from top people's music should only apply if it's something really iconic (e.g. dance teams should probably still steer clear of Bolero, to use an obvious example).

Buttercup.. Re; C/L..you make me sorry I mentioned it , especially since you make more of it than I intended . I didn't say C/L were copying anybody..certainly you don't see that in their choreography.I didn't say anyone should necessarily back off using music simply because other excellent skaters have used it before them.( Eventually , this will be true even of Bolero.)

They are one of my favourite couples , and I hope this won't backfire on them, because to come out as last year's No.6 team tackling the same material as the No.1 team , is a bit risky, especially considering the point spread between them. It invites direct comparison , and I very much doubt they'll come out on the favourable end of any comparison to V/M.

So I just say , I hope it's not a tactic. But the argument that they announced first doesn't carry a lot of weight , particularly when the other couple notoriously announces late, and tries to keep their programs under wraps as long as possible. ( and we were probably the last to hear the rumours. )

colleen o'neill said:

Buttercup.. Re; C/L..you make me sorry I mentioned it , especially since you make more of it than I intended . I didn't say C/L were copying anybody..certainly you don't see that in their choreography.I didn't say anyone should necessarily back off using music simply because other excellent skaters have used it before them.( Eventually , this will be true even of Bolero.)

They are one of my favourite couples , and I hope this won't backfire on them, because to come out as last year's No.6 team tackling the same material as the No.1 team , is a bit risky, especially considering the point spread between them. It invites direct comparison , and I very much doubt they'll come out on the favourable end of any comparison to V/M.

So I just say , I hope it's not a tactic. But the argument that they announced first doesn't carry a lot of weight , particularly when the other couple notoriously announces late, and tries to keep their programs under wraps as long as possible. ( and we were probably the last to hear the rumours. )

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So you're saying that C/L are making self-defeating decisions to use the same music as top teams, but this is for some reason a possible tactic - one based on figuring out the music choices of notoriously secretive teams that haven't announced their music choices? Excuse me, but how does this make any sense? Are Anna and Luca supposed to be psychic or something?

If you weren't trying to suggest that C/L are doing any of those things, then yes, you shouldn't have mentioned it or, if you did want to bring this up, you could have phrased your argument differently.

Personally I wish both teams had picked something other than Carmen, because it's overdone. But I especially wish that V/M had gone in a different direction, as this does not seem to be a great fit for their style (more specifically, for Tessa's style). Also, does Marina Zoueva have a single original idea left? I think not.

Ice dance needs more voids.

Okay, now to defend Colleen a little... the one year they chose music that a well known, currently competing team used was in the 10/11 season, where they selected Umbrellas of Cherbourg. If we recall, their coach that season was Morosov. You know, the guy that has approximately three ideas stolen from betters barely reconfigured for his current crop (I/K's 11/12 season? V/M and B/A. Pirates of the Carribean for Leonova as soon as Fernandez left him; B/K's final competitive program is a gloss on Grishuk/Platov's Nagano FD. Not to mention his typically boring selections for Miki Ando, Florent Amodio, and anyone else he works with). Now, I got the impression that Morosov's influence on C/L was glancing, and that they basically fled, but I might just be projecting. Additionally, for the notoriety of Canton, this season is obviously different due to the split. Shpilband certainly could've known that V/M were considering Carmen and while C/L announced him as a technical coach, we don't know to what extent he might influence choreography (choices and otherwise). Shpilband's been known as a shrewd politician for some time now. I think you can make the argument that tactically there is something of interest there. But that's another thread

The reason I don't mind Carmen for V/M is the reason you find it a flawed choice, Buttercup. Namely, it isn't their style. That's the best argument to use a warhorse imo (well, that and it's an undeniably perfect choice, but this is the internet. We can deny that 1 + 1 = 2). Stylistically, it's closest to Farrucas, but Tessa's not necessarily the best choice for a destructive femme fatale type (a la Krylova or Bestemianova). And I wish I could reconfigure V/M's selections to my own (namely, I'd get rid of the post-Olympic health issues, give them a full season on Latin Trio, and then St. James Infirmary, Sigur Ros, and Masquerade Waltz for their next three FDs; that they haven't danced to exactly what I want is the only bad thing about them ).

re: Voids

Also another thread. Or a pm.

ImaginaryPogue said:

Okay, now to defend Colleen a little... the one year they chose music that a well known, currently competing team used was in the 10/11 season, where they selected Umbrellas of Cherbourg. If we recall, their coach that season was Morosov. You know, the guy that has approximately three ideas stolen from betters barely reconfigured for his current crop (I/K's 11/12 season? V/M and B/A. Pirates of the Carribean for Leonova as soon as Fernandez left him; B/K's final competitive program is a gloss on Grishuk/Platov's Nagano FD. Not to mention his typically boring selections for Miki Ando, Florent Amodio, and anyone else he works with). Now, I got the impression that Morosov's influence on C/L was glancing, and that they basically fled, but I might just be projecting. Additionally, for the notoriety of Canton, this season is obviously different due to the split. Shpilband certainly could've known that V/M were considering Carmen and while C/L announced him as a technical coach, we don't know to what extent he might influence choreography (choices and otherwise). Shpilband's been known as a shrewd politician for some time now. I think you can make the argument that tactically there is something of interest there. But that's another thread

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Morozov is just a hack with a limited CD collection. I can see him trying to make a tactical move (I believe Amodio's SP music in 2010-11 was picked after it was announced as Joubert's music) but mostly the repetitive choices - musically and choreographically - speak to a lack of imagination, IMO. At least he is entertaining to watch at the boards.

Shpilband is a much shrewder strategist, as far as I can tell, which is why he'd know that there is no advantage in giving C/L music V/M had already chosen. You'd maybe want a comparison with closer competitors that they can overtake, such as I/K and B/S, but certainly not with the reigning Olympic and World champions. Carmen is such a common choice of music that I can certainly see two teams arrive at it separately, especially ones with a history of run of the mill choices.

How much would Shpilband have known re V/M's prep and programs? Last season ended in late April, and didn't they tour after that? Then they were on vacation during The Canton Coup. I am all for skaters trying new things artistically, but of all the things to experiment with, I just don't like this choice. Pink Floyd I could get behind, even though I liked the DelSchoes one better.

re: Voids

Also another thread. Or a pm.

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You know where to find me

No , I think I'll continue to phrase my arguments in a way that is natural to me ... (* sigh* ) ... knowing that there will be some who want to stretch my opinion to extremes to suit some combative predilection of their own.

When someone replies with " So you're saying.." , you know the spin is coming.

Having watched the sport for more than 4 decades , I know there is a tactic that crops up with some regularity. I don't pretend to fully understand it. ( It makes little sense to me , and I think it's misguided to say the least. ) I'm not sure that one clear rationale for it exists ( there could be a number ) but I know the tactic does exist, because I've seen it on many ,many occasions , to varying degrees. So it makes me nervous when I see a couple that I'm particularly fond of perhaps taking or being led in that direction.

I believe their coach, Mezzadri (sp?) and choreographer, Vlasova are the ones responsible for their program ( and to whatever degree C/L sought input for the idea ). They certainly would have been in a position to know , or hear news of V/M's choice well before it was mentioned by Aunt Joyce... I'm not so naive as to think that rumours don't make the rounds of insiders, first.

Anyway , with the news today of V/M's program coming out of HPC , the 2 programs could be quite , quite different ... ( which I imagined they could be ) ..

And really , this should be taken to another thread.