State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season | Page 8 | Golden Skate

State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Oy politics. My poor head. Maybe they just want Mcubed to be at COC It sounds nice???? I have a lot of confidence in Ashley but really Mirai, Caroline, Agnes, Christine, Rachel or Alyssa one of them you think would have or should have stepped up to the plate with some consistent skating. Let's analyze this. Gao did not seem to really develop under Orser. Zhang looked hopeful with some consistent and strong skates at Nationals and 4CCs this year. But was that because there was no expectation? Now she has skated poorly at Nebelhorn - was that due to injury or what??? Agnes has got to get the freeskate under control. Rachel loves the limelight some say or loves to skate BUT she wants it all. Can she handle school and skating so far it doesn't look great. And now for Alyssa. injury or no injury she has not shown she has the guts to be a champion. The issue is should she have done what Canada's Cynthia Phaneuf did and retire gracefully? She could be like so many unfulfilled skaters - Tiffany Chin, Nicole bobek, Christopher Bowman, Josee Chouinard, Tracey Wainman, Emanual Sandhu et al - great potential but never reached full potential.
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Nationals placements don't have an impact on GP selection, right? I thought that GP selection was based on World Ranking and Season's Best.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Well according to your logic and how terrible Mirai is why ship her out again?
Not sure what you are saying here? If Mirai is so weak why do they have to keep her away from SA year after year?

What am I missing ?

I am saying that to get Alissa's spot in Japan, she will have to skate better than she did at Glacier Falls by a lot. I have very low expectations after that set of programs as a fan of American ladies for her this season; but in the spring/early summer when all this gets sorted out on who goes where when on the GP circuit, it definitely made strategic sense to let CoC pick her, plan for Alissa to withdraw from Japan (and work out a probable deal for Mirai to backfill her) and pick two definite lower level candidates for the Ashley Wagner bus to roll over at SA. Mirai talked about a rededication to training and being closer to home improving her ability to train more effectively, etc, and Flatt is still working through a heavy course load at Stanford. :) If you buy the PR from Mirai's camp, then you do what you did...
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
OK...I love Mirai, but 7th at nationals with ONE assignment is actually pretty good. Oftentimes, 7th at nationals means NO GP, and maybe a senior B, if you're lucky. Mirai and Alissa have really been gifted. The year after Alissa finished 10th, she was given 2 GP's. But then again, that year, a lot of the girls who are skating in seniors now (Gracie, Agnes, etc) were juniors. Our field was shallower. Another example-- Caroline was 12th one year and got a GP the next. Joelle Forte was 8th or 9th at Nationals, and was given the TBA at Skate America.

A lot of strategizing goes into grand prix assignments. Mirai isn't going to Skate America, because Mirai can actually beat Ashley. So can Rachael, but international judges tend to prefer Mirai over Rachael. As someone already said, CoC is always easier. The USFSA is doing this to at least ensure that one American woman makes it to the GPF. At the moment, it's protecting its best chances-- Gracie and Ashley. As much as I love Mirai, she is a bit of a wild card this year.

I think Czisny got the biggest gift of all, actually. Of course, the reason she only has 1 event is because she turned the second one down. But the fact that she even had such an option is just :eek:

As for Nagasu, seems like a vigorous debate as to whether or not USFS is snubbing her or not, but forget all that for a minute and let's take a look at her track. 2nd at 2010 Nationals (deserved 1st IMHO), 4th at Vancouver Olympics, 7th at 2010 Worlds. Then 2011 she JUST misses the World team, finishing 3rd, and showing nowhere near the energy she had the previous season. Then, last season, she seemingly hit rock bottom with that 7th place finish at Nationals. So, just by results, I'm seeing a clear downward trend...it will be up to her to try to reverse that this season.

Flatt is also on a downward trend, but I'm guessing she got SA over Nagasu due to her higher finish at Nationals (6th vs 7th).

It's not a good time for our former Olympians...
 
Last edited:

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
I believe JSF and USFS have something worked out concerning Mirai and NHK and Alissa's spot and that is why Mirai currently only has 1 event. Who really believes Alissa will be ready to skate by NHK after the injury/surgery she just had and the fact that she was JUST getting back on the ice (stroking only, no jumps, no spins) the week after Champs Camp? I suspect she will withdraw right before the event and Mirai will be the substitute and that this has been the plan all along.

If Mirai medals at Cup of China and it looks like she has a shot at making the Grand Prix finals, then the USFSA leans on Alissa to withdraw from NHK, saying she needs a little more time in recovery. The deal with the Japanese Federation to replace Alissa with Mirai is already done, in exchange for taking Imai for Skate America (while avoiding Asada, Ando, Suzuki, and Murakami).

Has there been some evidence of this that's come to light? Are you speculating? It doesn't seem implausible to me; I'm just wondering if I missed something.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Has there been some evidence of this that's come to light? Are you speculating? It doesn't seem implausible to me; I'm just wondering if I missed something.

I am just goofing around. I know nothing.

Mskater knows a lot of people in the skating world and may have heard something definite to back up these speculations.

Blue Dog said:
Off topic, but she was...once. 2001, when people thought Hughes should've beaten Kwan.

I would give it to Michelle in 2001. Not so sure about 2000, though.

Here is Sarah's LP. Six clean triples including triple Salchow-triple loop combination. Spirals just as good as Michelle's and a much better layback. Still a little bit coltish and lacking Michelle's presence on the ice and overall Kwanliness.

Michelle stepped out of her opening triple loop, did not do a triple-triple, doubled her flip, and had to abandon her choreography to squeeze in an eighth jumping pass to bring her triples up to five.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LX0-hBiQjo#t=3m3s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJYGiq7VpY&feature=relmfu#t=0m33s
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think mskater got it right a few posts ago. The key is Alissa's assignment to NHK.

So Mirai goes to Cup of China. If she bombs, it's back to the practice rink to prepare for nationals. No harm done, since she has already banked her qualifying score from Finlandia, where she edged out Ira Vannut, Beatta Papp, Natali Papova, etc.

If Mirai medals at Cup of China and it looks like she has a shot at making the Grand Prix finals, then the USFSA leans on Alissa to withdraw from NHK, saying she needs a little more time in recovery. The deal with the Japanese Federation to replace Alissa with Mirai is already done, in exchange for taking Imai for Skate America (while avoiding Asada, Ando, Suzuki, and Murakami).

Win-win. :)

And what if Alissa is ready?

I find it hard to hope for Mirai to get Alissa's GP because I am also a big Alissa fan. I hope Alissa is doing great and her training is progressing.

This is far from a win-win situation for me but it is what it is.
 
Last edited:

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
I am just goofing around. I know nothing.

Mskater knows a lot of people in the skating world and may have heard something definite to back up these speculations.
Mine is purely speculation based on how long it will probably take to regain technical skills and put together programs from the time Alissa got back on the ice. I just don't see NHK weekend as a realistic representation of the necessary time it will take for those things to happen successfully based on the date Alissa got back on the ice and the restrictions she returned to the ice with (no jumping, no spinning) at least initially. I also am speculating that because Mirai is high on the sub list and she didn't get a second assignment anywhere else, that there was some dealing being made because Mirai is fairly popular and has a huge Japanese fan base.
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
What makes anyone so sure Czisny is going to withdraw due to injury? Sure, if she skates injured, she'll fall a lot and skate poorly, but it's not like that's ever stopped her before. The USFSA isn't known for acting on their stellar monitoring either.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
What makes anyone so sure Czisny is going to withdraw due to injury? Sure, if she skates injured, she'll fall a lot and skate poorly, but it's not like that's ever stopped her before. The USFSA isn't known for acting on their stellar monitoring either.

Speculation about Alissa might be more about deflecting the reality of the GP assignments.

Someone mentioned Flatt finished 6th at Natls and Nagasu 7th and that was the basis for Flatt getting SA....again.
That doesn't sound right to me.

I am familiar with the selection process for the Natl team. When I think about it I don't know nearly as much about the RULES for how GP's are assigned to skaters.

Silly me - I thought it might have to do with world rankings and scores along with results and medals from the previous season's INTL events.

Would that be too fair and sporting for figure skating?

This feels like watching baseball or football deciding that a third place team won't make the playoffs but the 5th and 6th place team will.

Fans wouldn't accept such a scenario and it would greatly diminish interest in these sports if they became more about politics and less about competing.
 
Last edited:

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Someone mentioned Flatt finished 6th at Natls and Nagasu 7th and that was the basis for Flatt getting SA....again.
That doesn't sound right to me.

What is your reason for fighting for SA for Mirai?:confused:

Somebodies never wanted to skate at SA, like Johnny Weir.

I don't think putting almost all American top ladies into one GP event, let them compete with each other and lose possible chances of getting more American ladies into GPF, is a good approach of anything. Maybe just because USFSA has more faith in Nagasu than Flatt, so they put Mirai into an oversea's GP instead of staying here competing with Wagner.;) Mirai has done well in Asia before.
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
What is your reason for fighting for SA for Mirai?:confused:

Somebodies never wanted to skate at SA, like Johnny Weir.

I don't think putting almost all American top ladies into one GP event, let them compete with each other and lose possible chances of getting more American ladies into GPF, is a good approach of anything. Maybe just because USFSA has more faith in Nagasu than Flatt, so they put Mirai into an oversea's GP instead of staying here competing with Wagner.;) Mirai has done well in Asia before.

My thoughts about this are really based on Mirai being ISU's third ranked US Lady and getting passed over for two GP's by three US Lady's with lower rankings.

Skate America, even with it's low ratings these days is still more visible in USA than all of the other GP's combined - and that would include the GPF.
The GPF is barely known in USA ......

Skate America has more TV coverage and to always have Rachael and never Mirai seems to show favoritism.
This is about the last 5 years. Rachael has been to SA 4 of the last 5 years. Mirai just once.

The politcally based arguments by mskater and mathman don't impress me even if they make sense in the inward looking world of skating

Because Mirai could beat Ashley is not a sporting argument but a political argument.

Giving lower ranked skaters two assignments and Mirai one is not a sporting decision but a political decision.

I am not against Ashley - and if a few reports we have heard from RD and mskater are true - Ashley will beat Mirai easily this season.

If Ashley or any skater needs a soft path to the GPF what does that say about the sporting attitude of figure skating?

If you want to be the best - which Ashley does - then you have to compete against the best.

Anything less feels more like a pageant than a real sport.
 
Last edited:

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
My thoughts about this are really based on Mirai being ISU's third ranked US Lady and getting passed over for two GP's by three US Lady's with lower rankings.

Skate America, even with it's low ratings these days is still more visible in USA than all of the other GP's combined - and that would include the GPF.
The GPF is barely known in USA ......

Skate America has more TV coverage and to always have Rachael and never Mirai seems to show favoritism.
This is about the last 5 years. Rachael has been to SA 4 of the last 5 years. Mirai just once.

The politcally based arguments by mskater and mathman don't impress me.

Because Mirai could beat Ashley is not a sporting argument but a political argument.

Giving lower ranked skaters two assignments and Mirai one is not a sporting decision but a political decision.

I am not against Ashley - and if a few reports we have heard from RD and mskater are true - Ashley will beat Mirai easily this season.

If Ashley or any skater needs a soft path to the GPF what does that say about the sporting attitude of figure skating?

If you want to be the best - which Ashley does - then you have to compete against the best.

Anything less feels more like a pageant than a real sport
.

You are not suggesting that figure skating should be proceeded like a blind fly, are you?

Every sport needs strategy and uses strategy. To avoid early clashes of some players and teams is used in many other sports. Your argument doesn't stand well.:p
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
You are not suggesting that figure skating should be proceeded like a blind fly, are you?

Every sport needs strategy and uses strategy. To a void early clashes of some players and teams is used in many other sports. Your argument doesn't stand well.:p

I am looking for a degree of fainess.
I don't see it here.

I am familiar with all kinds of sporting strategy. This shuffling skaters around has not made Skate America more successful.

I think Skate America is more important than Ashley or any skater.

This season the Men's field is loaded - the Ladies is set up for Ashley with Adelina as her only serious competitor.

If Ashley wins she would be a "paper tiger" of a champion - or like a pageant champion. Not a real sporting champion since the event has the feeling of being "fixed" before the skaters ever take the ice.

Sports are booming in America - pageants are dying.

Which world does figure skating want to belong too?
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Just for a point of reference:

Last season when they shortened the GP pool here are the U.S. Ladies assignments:
Alissa Czisny: Skate America, TEB (S1)
Rachael Flatt: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (S2)
Mirai Nagasu: Skate Canada, Cup of China (S3)
Agnes Zawadzki NHK Trophy, Cup of Russia (S4)
Christina Gao: Cup of China, Cup of Russia (S5)
Ashley Wagner: Skate Canada, NHK Trophy (S6)
Joelle Forte: Skate America (S9)
Caroline Zhang: Skate America (S12)
Total spots: 14 (8 skaters)

This season:
Ashley Wagner: Skate America, TEB (S1)
Alissa Czisny: NHK (S2)
Agnes Zawadzki: Rostelcom Cup, NHK Trophy (S3)
Caroline Zhang: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (S4)
Christina Gao: Skate America, TEB (S5)
Rachael Flatt: Skate America (S6)
Mirai Nagasu Cup of China (S7)
Gracie Gold: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (J1)
Total spots: 13 (8 skaters)

Japan in 2011:
Mao Asada: NHK, COR (S2)
Kanako Murakami:Cup of China, TEB (S3)
Akiko Suzuki: Skate Canada, NHK (S4)
Shoko Ishikawa: NHK (S9)
Haruka Imai: Skate America, Cup of Russia (S12)
Total spots: 9 (5 skaters)
(Risa Shoji (S5) and Yuki Nishino (S6) competed on the JGP; Miki Ando (S1) did not compete)

Japan in 2012:
Mao Asada: Cup of China, NHK (S1)
Akiko Suzuki: Skate Canada, NHK (S2)
Kanako Murakami: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (S3)
Haruki Imai: Skate America, NHK (S4)
Miki Ando: Cup of China, TEB (Comeback skater provision)
Total spots: 10 (5 skaters)

Russia in 2011:
Adelina Sotnikova: Cup of China, Cup of Russia (S1)
Alena Leonova: Skate Canada, NHK, Cup of Russia (S2)
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva: Skate Canada, TEB (S3)
Ksenia Mararova: Skate America, Cup of China (S5)
Sofia Biryukova: Cup of Russia (S6)
Total spots: 9 (5 skaters) (Julia Lipinitskaia (S4) competed in JGP)

Russia in 2012:
Adelina Sotnikova: Skate America, Cup of Russia (S1)
Julia Lipnitskaia: Cup of China, TEB (S2)
Alena Leonova: Skate America, Cup of Russia (S3)
Ksenia Makarova: Skate Canada, NHK (S4)
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva: Skate Canada, TEB (S6)
Polina Korobeynikova: Cup of Russia, TEB (S7)
Sofia Biryukova: Cup of Russia (S9)
Polina Shelepen: Skate Canada, NHK (S10)
Total spots: 15 (8 skaters)


Also for your reference:

Juniors moving up in 2011: Elizaveta Tuktamisheva (RUS), Adelina Sotnikova (RUS), Kexin Zhang (CHN)
Juniors moving up in 2012: Kaetlyn Osmond (CAN), Zijun Li (CHN), Julia Lipinitskaia, Polina Korobeynikova (RUS -- she did senior Worlds last year, but did JGP last year), Polina Shelepen (RUS), Gracie Gold (USA)


Just some food for thought...
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I am looking for a degree of fainess.
I don't see it here.

I am familiar with all kinds of sporting strategy. This shuffling skaters around has not made Skate America more successful.

I think Skate America is more important than Ashley or any skater.

This season the Men's field is loaded - the Ladies is set up for Ashley with Adelina as her only serious competitor.

If Ashley wins she would be a "paper tiger" of a champion - or like a pageant champion. Not a real sporting champion since the event has the feeling of being "fixed" before the skaters ever take the ice.

Sports are booming in America - pageants are dying.

Which world does figure skating want to belong too?

This outcry of figure skating dying is pointless when all logical reasons have been discussed and listed again and again in numerous threads.

I don't see the unfairness here. I don't think putting Daisuke Takahashi and Yuzuru Hanyu in the same NHK Trothy is good for the skaters. It's a sheer waste of resources, and putting unnecessary psychological pressure on the top skaters. Besides, I don't think adding Mirai Nagasu and removing off Flatt in SA could revive and make any difference in SA attendence. You yourself might not even attend it regardless whether Mirai is there or not, I suppose.;)
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
This outcry of figure skating dying is pointless when all logical reasons have been discussed and listed again and again in numerous threads.

I don't see the unfairness here. I don't think putting Daisuke Takahashi and Yuzuru Hanyu in the same NHK Trothy is good for the skaters. It's a sheer waste of resources, and putting unnecessary psychological pressure on the top skaters. Besides, I don't think adding Mirai Nagasu and removing off Flatt in SA could revive and make any difference in SA attendence. You yourself might not even attend it regardless whether Mirai is there or not, I suppose.;)

I am surprised and disappointed Mirai only got one GP event.
I would like something more competitive at the Ladies event at SA.

That's what I am saying.

ETA: Wow - what a treat for Japanese fans to see Mao and Akiko at NHK as well as Dai and Hanyu!

I bet NHK will be the talk of Japan with a field like that.

IMHO - that's the way to do it. :yes:
 
Last edited:

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
I am surprised and disappointed Mirai only got one GP event.
I would like something more competitive at the Ladies event at SA.

That's what I am saying.

ETA: Wow - what a treat for Japanese fans to see Mao and Akiko at NHK as well as Dai and Hanyu!

I bet NHK will be the talk of Japan with a field like that.

IMHO - that's the way to do it. :yes:

I agree with this. I see no reason not to have several competitive American skaters at Skate America. Let's face it, the Grand Prix is really just a way for skaters to try out their programs and get feedback from the international judges. There is no good reason not to let the home country see several of its skaters at this event--especially since skating is already on a downward trend in America. Mirai is a talented and exciting skater when she is "on." Why not showcase her along with the others?
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Wow - what a treat for Japanese fans to see Mao and Akiko at NHK as well as Dai and Hanyu!

I bet NHK will be the talk of Japan with a field like that.

IMHO - that's the way to do it. :yes:

I suppose that Japan federation has the deep field so that they can afford it, unlike US. Even if USFSA puts all eggs into the SA basket, I very much doubt it will bring a full house in attendence. There is no star/stars in US ladies. I think Ashley Wagner is vulnerable. USFSA is desperate in finding a star lady skater.
 
Last edited:

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
And there you have hit it on the head, BB, as to the strategy of SA selections - desperate for a lady star and protecting one who *could* be that lady star.
 
Top