2012 Skate America Men's Short Program | Page 6 | Golden Skate

2012 Skate America Men's Short Program

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Yes, Buttercup, I had already posted before seeing your post -- ITA, Dai wannabe, particularly at the beginning with the running his hands through his hair, and the jazz-themed music. I hope this season's scores will not be on the high end. It would have been so interesting to see how many 6.0s he would have got for this performance this early in the season.

I agree with your points, Buttercup and heyhey. Serpentine, re Yu Na, that doesn't mean anything re a comparison to Hanyu, IMHO (even despite them both being trained by Orser). Of course Orser is not planning to do anything to endanger Hanyu's health, but by the very nature of young bodies landing quads, it's dangerous. There's only so much that can be done to try and prevent injuries over time. Before his career is over, Hanyu could be having hip operations. Don't forget the serious injury/ operation Dai had to come back from.
 

SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
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Aug 18, 2009
Of course Orser is not planning to do anything to endanger Hanyu's health, but by the very nature of young bodies landing quads, it's dangerous. There's only so much that can be done to try and prevent injuries over time. Before his career is over, Hanyu could be having hip operations. Don't forget the serious injury/ operation Dai had to come back from.

And I'm sure that's what people were saying when triples were rare. Like I said, if the technique is fine and landing is that clean and unforced, the risk of injury (especially above and beyond that from a triple) is minimal.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
No Serpentine, I don't think so. I really don't, but you could ask Dick Button. I think there is a great deal of difference between 3 revolutions and 4 revolutions in terms of physics, (energy, physical impact, training, strategy, you name it). It's probably not that hard to determine also whether injuries increased as more and more athletes began mastering triples.

It took quite a while for triples to become standard in the sport after the first one was landed, about 30 years, if I'm not mistaken. Whereas for quads, about 20 years for the quad to become fairly mandatory and the majority of guys have not fully mastered them yet. As for triples, by the time they were mandatory practically all the top guys were consistently landing them.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Of course Orser is not planning to do anything to endanger Hanyu's health, but by the very nature of young bodies landing quads, it's dangerous. There's only so much that can be done to try and prevent injuries over time. Before his career is over, Hanyu could be having hip operations. Don't forget the serious injury/ operation Dai had to come back from.
IIRC, Dai's injury was a torn ACL, which he sustained on a bad 3A landing in practice; the 2011 surgery was to remove a bolt inserted during the original surgery. But ACL tears are not repetitive stress injuries, and they can happen on just about anything. Yretha Silete suffered a similar injury a couple of months ago, when she collided with another skater in training and fell at a bad angle. Athletes in other sports tear their ACLs, and they certainly don't perform the sort of jumps skaters do ;)
 
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SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
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Aug 18, 2009
No Serpentine, I don't think so. I really don't, but you could ask Dick Button. I think there is a great deal of difference between 3 revolutions and 4 revolutions in terms of physics, (energy, physical impact, training, strategy, you name it). It's probably not that hard to determine also whether injuries increased as more and more athletes began mastering triples. It took quite a while for triples to become standard in the sport after the first one was landed, about 30 years, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't understand why you're going so far out of your way to disagree with my every post. Just enjoying and being excited by a skater reaching new heights. Sorry for starters if I've inadvertently said anything in the past hour or so that offended you.

Now, onto skating injuries. Most injuries from jumps come from improper technique and forced landings. If a skater had poor technique or is insecure in his/her landings, it obviously goes without saying the the difference in the magnitude of injuries is greater in a quad than in a triple. Hence, yes, the number of injuries tends to be greater when trends in skating shift such that a skater feels compelled to put in a jump that isn't 100% secure (and this applies on historical scales looking at when a new jump is becoming standard on the competitive scene, but also on an individual scale, when juniors suddenly push new technical content when they go senior). Looking at Yuzuru's quad and having seen many skaters attempt new jumps, I'm not worried.

Also, I don't get why the Dick Button reference is relevant here.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Thanks for the info Buttercup. Okay, as far as injuries related to quads (or just jumping in general): Elvis, Plushenko, Joubert, and plenty of others, I'm sure.
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
All the American men have to show they can consistently land quads. But seriously U.S. fed politically has at least the last 10 to 15 years had to play catch up with Canadian, Russian and now Japanese feds.

Hanyu came in as current World bronze medal holder, and Kozuka has rep too, so it's a given they came in rated higher in the judges minds than all the American guys. But seriously, Abbott should be talked about in the same breath with the top guys. IMHO, Abbott is a better all-around skater. Again, he needs to show it consistently and since he has faltered in big moments, that rep has helped to hold Abbott down. But also, U.S. fed is often clueless politically.

Give credit where credit is due. Both Hanyu and Kozuka earned their points. Tonight, they were better than Abbott regardless whether he is a better all around skater. And regarding Kozuka, he had a dismal season last year--he didn't come in with much rep.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
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Apr 28, 2011
Kozuka has more rep than Abbott, along with a World silver medal. Just because I think Abbott is better (and he needs to consistently prove it) does not mean I don't give Hanyu and Kozuka credit.

And Serpentine, just because I don't agree with all of your points, doesn't mean I am "offended" by what you are saying. Figure skating is if nothing else, always about debate. No one is going to agree 100% of the time.

Great that you are not worried for Hanyu. He does have the quad down, as does Orser's other charge, Fernandez. They both came to Orser with solid quads. Still, injuries are unpredictable. That doesn't mean Hanyu will necessarily suffer serious injury during his career -- let's hope not. I enjoy Hanyu's skating, but I'm just not a huge fan at this point. Plus, I do not like CoP. Of course, it makes no difference if I like it or don't like.
 

SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
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Aug 18, 2009
Thanks for the info Buttercup. Okay, as far as injuries related to quads (or just jumping in general): Elvis, Plushenko, Joubert, and plenty of others, I'm sure.

Well according to that logic, no skaters should attempt new content. Nobody's disagreeing that jumps can cause injuries. What we are disagreeing with is that Yuzuru shouldn't have attempted his content due to the irreversible damage argument you were making a few comments back.

Give credit where credit is due. Both Hanyu and Kozuka earned their points. Tonight, they were better than Abbott regardless whether he is a better all around skater. And regarding Kozuka, he had a dismal season last year--he didn't come in with much rep.

I concur. Going to bed excited to have seen a record-breaking skate. :)

EDIT: Oops, before I go to bed (just because flawed logic really bothers me, if it wasn't already clear :)):
And Serpentine, just because I don't agree with all of your points, doesn't mean I am "offended" by what you are saying. Figure skating is if nothing else, always about debate. No one is going to agree 100% of the time.
Asking someone to agree with oneself 100% of the time is not the same as asking someone not to disagree with oneself 100% of the time.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
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Apr 28, 2011
Now who's getting offended as well as saying something I didn't say. I never said "irreversible damage," just serious injury is always a factor for athletes, especially over time, and I'm not just talking about Hanyu. Your argument was that people said the same thing about triple jumps being dangerous. And I disagreed with you.

Let's move on. We disagree on some minor points.

:laugh: Just because I state my opinions, does not mean I'm "asking" anyone to agree with me.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Thanks for the info Buttercup. Okay, as far as injuries related to quads (or just jumping in general): Elvis, Plushenko, Joubert, and plenty of others, I'm sure.
Joubert's foot spiking injuries were on 3Lz attempts - I think Kurt Browning tweeted after the second one that he'd been through that, too. Joubert has had back and knee issues, but I've never seen that attributed to any specific jumps, just the wear and tear of a long career (he's now in his 12th senior season).

Athletes in many sports do things that the human body wasn't quite designed for, and medical issues ensue - think of gymnasts and their various injuries (e.g. Mustafina tore her ACL on a vault), or baseball pitchers and Tommy John surgery. Pushing your body to the limits is what athletes do, it's a part of sport. The key thing is to have correct technique, which should minimize the potential risk - but even then, some things you can't control.
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Kozuka has more rep than Abbott, along with a World silver medal. Just because I think Abbott is better (and he needs to consistently prove it) does not mean I don't give Hanyu and Kozuka credit.[/QUO

Well you had me fooled then--you keep bringing up politics and "their strong Federation"--it sure sounded like you thought that was the only reason they outscored Abbott.

Anyway, good luck to all of them in their FS!
 

SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
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Aug 18, 2009
:laugh: Just because I state my opinions, does not mean I'm "asking" anyone to agree with me.

Again, no, that was me I was referring to. You claimed that I was asking you to "agree 100% of the time", so I was pointing out the logical fallacy of equating that to my comment that you were "disagreeing 100% of the time". Hence, the "asking someone to agree with oneself 100% of the time is not the same as asking someone not to disagree with oneself 100% of the time". (Besides, if you recall, that was pretext for me to preemptively apologize for something that had apparently offended you and not an attack in any way.)

OK, enough logic-policing for today (especially since other seem to have taken on the cause as well?). Night, and may everyone have the skate they were hoping for tomorrow! :)
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
I don't disagree with anything you say in your above post Buttercup. But surely you are not denying that quads in and of themselves take an enormous physical and mental toll on skaters. That extra revolution is not a walk in the park, it's extremely difficult. IceNetwork had a very good article over the summer with interesting quotes from skaters re the difficulties of mastering the quad, and what makes it so difficult.

I think it's impossible to every time out have exact technique on every jump. It's the nature of the sport. Being consistent on jump technique is always a work in progress. That's why Plushenko is so amazing. Hanyu definitely may be heading in the same direction ... i.e., legendary career.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Kozuka was really underscored, I would have put him at about 90 points and very close to Hanyu (whom I would have put at about 92 points). I'd actually have Kozuka slightly ahead on the PCS...Hanyu had more transitions but I think Kozuka was a little better in edge quality, choreography, and interpretation. His spread eagle was deeper, his movements felt a bit more natural (some of Hanyu's movements looked a bit more "rehearsed" to me), and his movements seemed to be created FOR the music a little more than Hanyu's.

A fine start to the season for Jeremy, but he really needs to do a clean SP with a Quad and everything else in it, which is something he hasn't ever been able to do yet in his career.

Nice to see Armin got credit for a rotated Quad, even though he fell.

Not a good day for the Czech men at all.

LOL @ Razzano's skating, as always.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I don't disagree with anything you say in your above post Buttercup. But surely you are not denying that quads in and of themselves take an enormous physical and mental toll on skaters. That extra revolution is not a walk in the park, it's extremely difficult. IceNetwork had a very good article over the summer with interesting quotes from skaters re the difficulties of mastering the quad, and what makes it so difficult.
I absolutely agree that quads are difficult, that skaters deserve great credit for doing them, and that the harder the jumps, the greater the risk. I don't know if quads are necessarily the most risky jump health-wise, though, because they tend to be quad toes. Aren't loops (and lutzes) more problematic in terms of the type of strain they put on the body, even if fewer revolutions are done?

Back to the actual event: I wonder what Evan Lysacek thought, if he watched the men's SPs. I don't think he could have competed with what Hanyu did today - even on home ice, even with an OGM bonus.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Well you had me fooled then--you keep bringing up politics and "their strong Federation"--it sure sounded like you thought that was the only reason they outscored Abbott.

Anyway, good luck to all of them in their FS!

Politics is always a factor in figure skating. But of course, there are lots of factors involved, especially how well skaters perform on the ice. I believe Abbott deserved even higher marks in PCS, CH, TR, IN and even PE. Even Armin deserved higher scores, IMHO. It's just that Armin does not have much rep internationally, in addition to not having a strong fed actually politicking for him. Both Armin and Abbott have to land the quads even moreso.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
Congrats guys! Hanyu and Kozuka were superb! Chan will be in trouble...

About the injury, Hanyu is very thin,very slight, maybe he is less vulnerable.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Quads are risky because they are difficult physically and mentally. They require a great deal of endurance and mental energy. The quad is not the actual name of a jump, it is only an extra revolution, so yes, the toe jump is the easiest jump in terms of difficulty, then flip, loop, lutz and axel. I doubt we will ever see a quad axel performed, and we'll certainly never see quintuple jumps -- physically impossible, IMO. I know that was likely said once about the 4-minute mile too. :)
 
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