2012 Skate America Ladies LP | Page 11 | Golden Skate

2012 Skate America Ladies LP

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Go Christina and Ashley!! For once, a great showing by the American ladies. I'm so happy for them.

Ashley skated great and deserved the win. Yes, she still needs to add a triple/triple, and should do it in the next GP, but what a start to her season. I was really impressed by the choreographic detail in the program and how well she presented it. Yes, she's getting some "rep" points in PCS, but she's also genuinely improved in this area. In years past, her programs were always so girlish and run-of-the-mill. Now it's totally different. Everything is carefully thought out, from music choice to costume design to conception of the program, and it really shows. I'm just so impressed with her whole approach to this season. There's a real professionalism and maturity to Ashley's skating now. I just hope she can keep it going for the whole season. Anything is possible if she does. (And, just a side note, but I think her LP costume is terrific. It's eye-catching, memorable, and totally fits the character she's portraying.)

Christina was terrific! Definitely the best I've ever seen her skate. I'm thrilled for her. And, as with Ashley, I see a lot of artistic growth. In this performance, she really hit the musical accents very nicely and made much better eye contact with the audience and judges than I've seen in the past. I loved that she was able to hit not one but two strong programs in this event--that's been rare for American ladies in recent years--even if one program is good, usually the other one is not. Seems like the move to Boston is working out very well for her.

As to Adelina Sotnikova, I thought she was overscored. I did not agree at all with her 3-point PCS lead over Christina in the long. I can see the argument that Adelina's basic skating skills are better than Christina's. However, Christina had an elegance and attention to detail totally lacking with Adelina. I do not like Adelina's LP at all. The music is loud and OTT, plus there are too many separate cuts within it. The choreography does fit the music, but it feels like a show number, not a competitive program. There is something a bit tawdry and inappropriate about the whole thing. The costume doesn't help matters. It's too sheer on top, and the feather skirt is a bit trashy. It has the effect of making Adelina look older than she is--but not in a good way. Nonetheless, for those posters ready to give up on Adelina, it's way too soon for that. Remember how young she is. She has many years yet to improve and find consistency and a style that works for her. Just look at Ashley and how long it's taken her to reach her present level.

I also wouldn't write Leonova off just yet. She seems to be a late-season skater who peaks for Worlds. (Although she'll have to peak earlier this year just to make the Russian world team.)

As to Flatt, apparently she once again decided to compete despite injury. Once again, a competitive spot that Mirai Nagasu or someone else could have competently filled is held onto instead by Rachael, for yet another disastrous result. Does she really think she did herself or anyone any favors by competing and placing 9th out of 10??
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
As to Flatt, apparently she once again decided to compete despite injury. Once again, a competitive spot that Mirai Nagasu or someone else could have competently filled is held onto instead by Rachael, for yet another disastrous result. Does she really think she did herself or anyone any favors by competing and placing 9th out of 10??
I agree with most of your comments,, but Flatt's assignment to SA seems to me to have been strategic, and her weak showing was likely not an issue for the USFSA. I mentioned this earlier in the thread and I see others have suggested the same thing elsewhere: Rachael was probably at SA to ensure that Ashley Wagner would have a better chance of winning. I know many have speculated that the FFSG does not want certain skaters at TEB so that they can improve the chances of their own ladies - is it any wonder that the USFSA is playing a similar game? Mirai has shown that she is not consistent enough to contend, while Ashley Wagner has shown that she can deliver strong performances on a fairly consistent basis. Clearly she has her federation's support as she works toward the Olympics. Note that they did the same thing when Evan Lysacek was being set up for the Olympics in 2009-10, putting together about the weakest field possible for Skate America so that he could win easily - Jeremy Abbott, the US National Champion at the time, was sent elsewhere, as was Johnny Weir; all the top Japanese guys were carefully avoided.

All that said, I hope Rachael and her team can figure out what is wrong with her ankle so that she can get the treatment she needs.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Sigh ... I've only had a chance to watch Rachael and Christina's SP. Cannot wait to find time to watch Ashley and Christina. It's so nice to see American ladies go 1-2 in a competition again, although I was hoping for a great performance from Adelina.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Yeah but they could have at least sent someone who would have at least looked like she belonged out there on the ice. If Ashley is so good she should be able to beat the more middle of the road US Ladies who at least are capable of decent performances.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Yeah but they could have at least sent someone who would have at least looked like she belonged out there on the ice. If Ashley is so good she should be able to beat the more middle of the road US Ladies who at least are capable of decent performances.
I agree that Wagner is good enough to succeed without this kind of help. My point is that it looked like the USFSA elected not to take that risk.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Orser doesn't coach Gao, Peter Johansson and Mark Mitchell does.

Yes, but my guess is that all the work she did with Orser are also helping her. WOW, Wagner, Gao and Imai all had such beautiful programmes with great choreography.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
She worked with Orser for quite a while without this kind of lovely skate. I wonder if the new training environment/style of training has changed her preparation and regimen?
 

Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
She worked with Orser for quite a while without this kind of lovely skate. I wonder if the new training environment/style of training has changed her preparation and regimen?

If I am correct, Christina was training almost full time in past three years in Toronto. I think she did online school? But besides that, it was full on training because she thought she had a chance of being one of the top American ladies. I guess after being accepted into Harvard, priorities change and she's less focused on her status in competitive skating, and more on enjoying the opportunities to compete. My two cents. I think it's just a shift in mind set.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I agree with most of your comments,, but Flatt's assignment to SA seems to me to have been strategic, and her weak showing was likely not an issue for the USFSA. I mentioned this earlier in the thread and I see others have suggested the same thing elsewhere: Rachael was probably at SA to ensure that Ashley Wagner would have a better chance of winning. I know many have speculated that the FFSG does not want certain skaters at TEB so that they can improve the chances of their own ladies - is it any wonder that the USFSA is playing a similar game? Mirai has shown that she is not consistent enough to contend, while Ashley Wagner has shown that she can deliver strong performances on a fairly consistent basis. Clearly she has her federation's support as she works toward the Olympics. Note that they did the same thing when Evan Lysacek was being set up for the Olympics in 2009-10, putting together about the weakest field possible for Skate America so that he could win easily - Jeremy Abbott, the US National Champion at the time, was sent elsewhere, as was Johnny Weir; all the top Japanese guys were carefully avoided.

All that said, I hope Rachael and her team can figure out what is wrong with her ankle so that she can get the treatment she needs.


I think that is true. I also think they sent Rachael here since they figured she would fare poorly and it will be even easier to dump her out of the top 10 at Nationals and hopefully send her into retirement even if she skates well there. They did not want an occasionaly brilliant skater like Zawadzki, Czisny or Nagasu being here and happening to have one of their rare great competitions, at the same time perhaps Wagner had a rare (for her these days) off competition, and having their new #1 who they are clearly behind now lose the highest prominent U.S event prior to Nationals to another American, so they made sure to assign U.S ladies who even a faulty Wagner vs these skaters best was certain to be scored ahead of by international judges. Also the international field was sure to be picked as weak of one as possible, a slumping Sotnikova, the likely fluke World silver medalist Leonova who is probably going way backwards this season, and so on. As it was Wagner skating this way wouldnt need the help, but they made sure to have her protected just in case she did.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
I think that is true. I also think they sent Rachael here since they figured she would fare poorly and it will be even easier to dump her out of the top 10 at Nationals and hopefully send her into retirement even if she skates well there. They did not want an occasionaly brilliant skater like Zawadzki, Czisny or Nagasu being here and happening to have one of their rare great competitions, at the same time perhaps Wagner had a rare (for her these days) off competition, and having their new #1 who they are clearly behind now lose the highest prominent U.S event prior to Nationals to another American, so they made sure to assign U.S ladies who even a faulty Wagner vs these skaters best was certain to be scored ahead of by international judges. Also the international field was sure to be picked as weak of one as possible, a slumping Sotnikova, the likely fluke World silver medalist Leonova who is probably going way backwards this season, and so on. As it was Wagner skating this way wouldnt need the help, but they made sure to have her protected just in case she did.

I feel like this scenario assumes a level of near-Machiavellian scheming that I'm not sure the federation is even capable of. (If they were that good at manipulating situations, wouldn't they have found some way to get Alissa Czisny off the World team last year?)

I get that the federation wants Ashley to shine, but don't they also just want to get good results, period? I mean, it's expensive to send these skaters to events. Why send them if they're just going to bomb? It doesn't make sense to me. If they're worried about Nagasu eclipsing Wagner, then just send someone with potential who could use exposure and international experience yet won't pose a "threat".

However, I admit I know little about federation politics, so you guys may be right.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
She worked with Orser for quite a while without this kind of lovely skate. I wonder if the new training environment/style of training has changed her preparation and regimen?

I personally think it must be great to be a training mate with Ross Miner (who is also coached by Johansson + Mitchell). Miner seems so level headed and I bet he's just a really nice guy that probably makes Christina feel at ease.

Also, I think what we're seeing is Christina simply being able to perform well in her new body. I had a feeling that last season was a bit of a throwaway season for her because she clearly was going through a major growth spurt and you could see that she felt pretty awkward in her body.

Here at Skate America -- she was CONFIDENT. When I saw her at the autograph session -- she seemed very much at ease.

More comments coming soon! :)
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Congrats to Ashley! I caught Ashley, Christina and Adelina FS yesterday on NBC. Ashley is not one of my fav but her performance was outstanding.
I was clapping along with the audience when she finished. Christina surprised the heck out of me, lovely performance and much improved.
Adelina is a breath of fresh air, not crazy about her FS music, ugh.

After reading about Rachel's poor performance I think I will pass on watching her FS.

Off to watch the Ladies SP!
 
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Ruffles78

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
You know, I can't believe I'm one coming to Rachael's defense. I'm not a big fan of hers at all. But, I think her long program was pretty well skated. She had a lot of energy at the end showing that her stamina is a non-issue. I have a feeling that after she took time off this summer, she lost both the flip and lutz jumps, and she's just now getting the flip back. The technique on that jump just looks very unsure at the moment. The one thing that was poor in her performance was her spins. She definitely needs help getting the levels up on those. She does look like she's gained some weight, but she's never had much of a skater's body type in the first place. I think people that aren't watching her freeskate due to the reports should check it out. It really was not the disaster that people are making it out to be, and the ending choreography was quite lovely. There are a lot of second tier skaters that would be over joyed to skate a program like that.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
You know, I can't believe I'm one coming to Rachael's defense. I'm not a big fan of hers at all. But, I think her long program was pretty well skated. She had a lot of energy at the end showing that her stamina is a non-issue. I have a feeling that after she took time off this summer, she lost both the flip and lutz jumps, and she's just now getting the flip back. The technique on that jump just looks very unsure at the moment. The one thing that was poor in her performance was her spins. She definitely needs help getting the levels up on those. She does look like she's gained some weight, but she's never had much of a skater's body type in the first place. I think people that aren't watching her freeskate due to the reports should check it out. It really was not the disaster that people are making it out to be, and the ending choreography was quite lovely.

I will comment more later, but Rachael had a decent performance. She stood on her feet and did five non UR triples. In fact, I felt the judges were a bit stingy on the GOE for those jumps. The loops, in particular, were quite lovely. She mostly lost points on non-jump elements, particularly with spins levels, which with an ankle injury it makes sense that she wouldn't want to abuse her legs by doing all those rotations.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I feel like this scenario assumes a level of near-Machiavellian scheming that I'm not sure the federation is even capable of. (If they were that good at manipulating situations, wouldn't they have found some way to get Alissa Czisny off the World team last year?)

Actually it was quite obvious last year they badly wanted Czisny on that World team and it took a level of scheming for her to get the scores to put her there despite how she skated at Nationals. They ended up looking like fools for so badly wanting that in the end, but it is clearly what they wished for last season and got, fairness be damned.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I will comment more later, but Rachael had a decent performance. She stood on her feet and did five non UR triples. In fact, I felt the judges were a bit stingy on the GOE for those jumps. The loops, in particular, were quite lovely. She mostly lost points on non-jump elements, particularly with spins levels, which with an ankle injury it makes sense that she wouldn't want to abuse her legs by doing all those rotations.

She also lost points by having the lowest PCS of the entire field, the only one close to as low in the LP being last place finisher Sarah Hecken. Journeywomen Viktoria Helgesson with a poor LP includng a fall, a near fall, another stumble, and 3 downgraded jumps, still beat Flatt by an average of an entire point by component and 8 point in PCS in the LP. If that isnt a message where the judges want you to go, I dont know what is.

She did skate quite well. That is the whole thing. Even a good skate from her cant reach 100 points anymore, and her PCS suck in a huge way now. She basically has to land 7 triples if she wants to get close to 100 points since she isnt going to get points from anything else now.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I feel like this scenario assumes a level of near-Machiavellian scheming that I'm not sure the federation is even capable of. (If they were that good at manipulating situations, wouldn't they have found some way to get Alissa Czisny off the World team last year?)

I get that the federation wants Ashley to shine, but don't they also just want to get good results, period? I mean, it's expensive to send these skaters to events. Why send them if they're just going to bomb? It doesn't make sense to me. If they're worried about Nagasu eclipsing Wagner, then just send someone with potential who could use exposure and international experience yet won't pose a "threat".

However, I admit I know little about federation politics, so you guys may be right.

It doesn't require that much scheming. You just choose the skaters you want.

You do want success, but there's only so much political capital - you've gotta choose how you spend it.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
It doesn't require that much scheming. You just choose the skaters you want.

You do want success, but there's only so much political capital - you've gotta choose how you spend it.

Maybe I'm naieve but I think Rachael was picked over Agnes and Gracie because they had 2 assignments and couldn't have another/didn't need one. She was picked over Miral because Mirai had one, Rachel wasn't going to get one, and Rachael beat Mirai at Nationals and until last year was the most consistent skater we had. That's right: Rachael had one bad year. I can understand the federation wanting to see if the bad year was due to adjusting to college and she might rebound. Now, obviously, the answer is no. USFSA has no crystal ball.

If she keeps getting assignments in the future, I'll be more ready to buy into this conspiracy idea. And this is from someone who has never been a Rachael fan or even, most of the time, supporter.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Flatt's score at the 2010/2011 GPF: 127.57
Flatt's score at Skate America, 2012: 136.09

It's more than one bad year, imo.

Host picks are selected first and there were no TBAs, so when Flatt was chosen, even Ashley didn't have two spots yet.
 
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