Most powerful federation? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Most powerful federation?

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I'd like to congratulate the person who started this thread for perpetrating the myth that all figure skating competitions are rigged. Why bother to even have the skaters skate?

No wonder the rest of the sporting world doesn't take the sport seriously, when the fans of the sport freely admit it's all fixed.

Was SLC a myth? It's very hard to catch bad behavior but that was one instance where undeniable evidence surfaced. To say that federations can influence results isn't saying every competition is rigged. If politicking wasn't effective no one would do it. Why do you think a US judge slammed Plushenko's skating before Turin? Do you think he would have slammed Evan if he skated like Evgeny?
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Was SLC a myth? It's very hard to catch bad behavior but that was one instance where undeniable evidence surfaced. To say that federations can influence results isn't saying every competition is rigged. If politicking wasn't effective no one would do it. Why do you think a US judge slammed Plushenko's skating before Turin? Do you think he would have slammed Evan if he skated like Evgeny?

SLC was more than 10 years ago under a different judging system, which was easy to manipulate if you had the numbers.

This system is not easy to game, even if you did happen to know which judges scores were being used. It is ridiculous to assume that one federation can manipulate results, especially under this judging system.

How would the anyone know that Osmond might skate well enough to be declared the winner, and that Suzuki would bomb her SP? Manipulation of the results only works when the skaters perform to a level which makes the results reasonable. How would SC know long enough in advance of the event to maniuplate the judges assigned?
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
PCS scores are just as easy (or hard) to manipulate as pre COP scores; however, that's not saying that there was anything wrong going on here.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
How would the anyone know that Osmond might skate well enough to be declared the winner, and that Suzuki would bomb her SP? Manipulation of the results only works when the skaters perform to a level which makes the results reasonable. How would SC know long enough in advance of the event to maniuplate the judges assigned?

My personal opinion was that the bump in Osmond's PCS scores from the SP to the LP was just "home cooking". The judges are human and of course they might think a program was skated better if there is an enthusiastic response from the audience.

A little OT, but does SC invite and pay for travel for the judges as well? If so, that could be a little extra motivation to bump a home skater if the judge wants to be invited in the future.
 
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lowtherlore

Guest
SLC was more than 10 years ago under a different judging system, which was easy to manipulate if you had the numbers.

This system is not easy to game, even if you did happen to know which judges scores were being used. It is ridiculous to assume that one federation can manipulate results, especially under this judging system.

How would the anyone know that Osmond might skate well enough to be declared the winner, and that Suzuki would bomb her SP? Manipulation of the results only works when the skaters perform to a level which makes the results reasonable. How would SC know long enough in advance of the event to maniuplate the judges assigned?

Sorry, but that sounds too simplified and naive. Influencing the judges or the results can happen via many different forms of politicking. And powerful federations can do that, by negotiating (explicitly or implicitly) official posts, assignment of judges and technical callers, assignment of athletes, and rule changes.

Excuse me for bringing up an old case and specific skaters. The technical caller who first gave Yu-Na an edge attention call (when FS commentators were saying hers was a perfect flip) was the same one who dinged her with a UR call (the only time it happened to her 3-3s) at 2009 GPFs in Japan, just prior to the Olys. And as somebody pointed out here, the ISU council made the rule changes after the Olys, limiting the number of 2As and raising the value of 3As. The consequence? We no longer see her huge 3f-3t or 2a-3t, point-scoring being secondary. Terrific.

More recent case: I have no problem with Kaetlyn declared a winner at that particular event (she's a fine athlete and I like her skating and her confidence). She did have the SP lead and it could have gone either way. Still, granting her some 9s were just absurd or, to say the least, inconsistent by any standard, absolute or relative, or with the so-called "corridor" practice.

Those things have happened and will continue to happen. But if the fans don't raise concerns and take it like "that's the way it is", then who would? Cinquanta? Dore?
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I'd like to congratulate the person who started this thread for perpetrating the myth that all figure skating competitions are rigged. Why bother to even have the skaters skate?

No wonder the rest of the sporting world doesn't take the sport seriously, when the fans of the sport freely admit it's all fixed.

Exactly! If the skating world is known to be this dirtily manipulated, why bother competing? If the skating fans know this much how the federations, particularly Skate Canada, are politicking, why bother watching?:rolleye:
 
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lowtherlore

Guest
Exactly! If the skating world is known to be this dirtily manipulated, why bother competing? If the skating fans know this much how the federations, particularly Skate Canada, are politicking, why bother watching?

That too sounds simplified and irresponsible.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Exactly! If the skating world is known to be this dirtily manipulated, why bother competing? If the skating fans know this much how the federations, particularly Skate Canada, are politicking, why bother watching?

Politicking and out-right rigging/manipulation is not one in the same. To me, manipulation/rigging = the result is set before the competition is set to begin. Politicking is influencing TPTB in a way that may influence their final result though it is highly dependent on how the skaters actually do., i.e. it doesn't really work if the skater that is being politicked has a disaster of a program or that skater's competitors skate in such a way that giving them the win is the obvious choice.

And for heaven's sake, judges, coaches and skaters have talked about politicking in the past, so I don't know why we as fans should believe it doesn't exist.

As to why we bother watching? The fact is that through it all, despite bad judging, questionable scores, whatever, the skating is still fun to watch! I find it pretty easy to still enjoy both Akiko's and Kaetlyn's programs (namely Akiko's FS and Kaetlyn's SP) despite all the discussion.
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I wonder how Canada failed to make Orser OC in 1988 and how Canada chose a korean skater instead of its own Joanni.

Canada didn't fail. Scott hamilton won according to experts and there were figures then. Orser i think was the best free skater of his comp. years. Also, the USA was def more powerful a fed than Canada in the 80's. Our skaters had an advantage we no longer have. The battle of the Brians was so close. I do not know what was what, can't recall. I think Orser won the free skate. Can't recall. He made an error in his long I think, and boitano was perfect. It was so close. But again I think the USA was def more powerful in the 80's but not now.

Yuna had the basics, but she was clearly helped greatly in every way from the Canadian team based at cricket club. Without ALL they did for her and taught her, it easily would have been Mao as OGM. Yuna understands her first coaches could not take her from a girl who was Korean National Champion (where is korea? lol) and GPF champ to the next level. I understand she learned good technique as a young girl, but her Canadian team transformed her. To ask why Joannie did not win is rather Duh. Her mistakes were many. She might have been totally aweome (as opposed to just awesome) had her mother not [unexpectedly passed away]. I love her skating, and would rather watch Joannie do a gala than Yuna. After her mother died, Joannie skated with her heart and warmth. Yuna is a cool, cold skater. One does not feel her programs. At least many say so and I get the point. How could joannie win over a clean Yuna with her jumps done perfectly or a three triple axel mao who also skated very well.

No federation could cheat like that in an Olympics where every score is heavily scrutinized. That is the major reason why we have CoP. Fair judging. Vancouver was indeed fair.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Those things have happened and will continue to happen. But if the fans don't raise concerns and take it like "that's the way it is", then who would? Cinquanta? Dore?

Raise what concerns? Has Osmond skated that bad?! Was there any this level of concerns and outrage when Jeremy Abbott got the second highest PCS but the eighth place finish in LP at SA less than two weeks ago? Was there any this level of concerns and outrage when Daisuke Takahashi got then world record SP score and such high total scores at WTT which he himself also thought they were way generous scores and brushed them off with smile? Was there any this level of concerns and outrage for the home-cooking points in Evan Lysacek's 2009 LA Worlds gold?:rolleye:
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I'd like to congratulate the person who started this thread for perpetrating the myth that all figure skating competitions are rigged. Why bother to even have the skaters skate?

No wonder the rest of the sporting world doesn't take the sport seriously, when the fans of the sport freely admit it's all fixed.

Dragonlady, what are you smoking, lol? Be nice. I did not perpetrate any myth, no one is saying what you said. I wondered about how political power works now in the sport, wh weilds the most. It's an inside question, and we have insiders here. I am purporting nothing like what you said, but you are known for having a lot of attack as we say. Please don't start trouble in an otherwise civil thread.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I think the Russian federation is very powerful too. Remember, in the last couple years they've scored two major coups:

1) Getting 2011 Worlds in Moscow after the tsunami
2) Getting Plushenko reinstated to eligible status (would that have happened for any other skater, from any other country?)

The U.S. federation, meanwhile, seems quite weak, especially considering the general strength of our program. I'm guessing this is attributable to the sport's current lack of popularity in the U.S. Despite this, though, I feel like we should have more pull.

Plushenko's reinstatement followed all the rules and I think his exception to the point minimum from ISU rule for euros was all because he is Plushenko not that he was from Russia.

The answer is totally Canada.

Canada whining changed the scoring system. Well Canada and US but US got behind Canada!

The whole thing is there is subjectivity involved and that can be influenced by politics. Obviously Vancouver had tons of politics against Russian skaters by Canadians and Americans. Russia did not effectively respond!

Brining up the fact that the ISU had Plushenko in a bad judging/skater video was already too late. How was he even is the bad skater video when he was talking of coming back for years just had not pulled the trigger. He was talking about it and the ISU still had Plushenko in the bad judging/skater video.

The model of bad judging was all about a compeition where a Russian won Gold!!
 
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skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Well, over the years it does seem the host country is helped in some discipline, as a thank you. It appears to be how it is done. Be nice to Canadian skaters when they host the GPF, and be nice to the Russians when they host. As long as I can remember, some discipline would raise my eyes a bit as to a result. Usually it is the bronze medal. If 3 and 4 are close, give the medal to the host country. In a judged sport there is indeed room for gifting. No insiders have spoken up, but when people post as themselves and have a role in skating, they must be careful what they divulge on skating boards. I do think Canada is very strong and nationalistic in a way that Russia is as well.

SC saw a chance to reward great skating from a brand new lady who was wonderful. I prsonally think Akiko is one of the best, most musical skaters I have seen. She is a joy to watch, and at 27, she is amazing. Likely Akiko would win in japan, with kate second. This appears how the GPF works. World scores and Olympic scores are affected by reputation and status. Why is it the WC so often wins the Olympics? Not always, but often. So At the Worlds and Olympics, here is a lot going on, and more scrutiny goes into the judging. After SLC no judge wants to face hatred from the world for hime cooking. But it does seem home cooking is more tolerated on GPF. It is a beautiful sport to watch.

Poor Nancy wuzrobbed in 94 and we could debate if and why, but if we get angry at the times when the wrong person won, we'd walk away. As Mrs P. says, the sport is beautiful and interesting. I am not so interested in the vagaries of the CoP. I want to be moved, or delighted, or just enjoy. Suzuki and Osmond skated with joy. It was wonderful really. They make you forget who came in third, really. Canada did indeed do very well at SC. Maybe a tiny bit corrupt, or is that a way too strong word. "Home cooking" seems to be more descriptive. The results were within the mean of acceptable to most everyone. We no longer see the stuff that made people scream when the bloc judging was in full force in ice dance.

I think it is impossible to rig, unless you pay off the top team to skate bad. V/M usually win. If they threw away a medal -well then we'd have a SLC sized scandal. But this is not prize fighting, lol. If there were big money/ig endorsements left in NA or in Europe, people might care more about cheating some how. I think it looks fairly clean. I have no idea if the Asian fans feel the sport is judged fairly. Since we have Japan as the superpower of mens and ladies skating, winning so many medals, I don't think they'd complain or say the judging is unfair, unless it's the inflation episodes which seem past us now.

I wonder how China feels it's skaters are regarded and scored at big events and if it is fair? But unfortunately, we don't have many members from mainland china (or do we?) to weigh in. This emerging superpower is emerging in so many areas of life, even FS. What does the future hold for their skaters? When will we see another Lu Chen?? China has everything it needs it seems to have their skaters on the podiums -in every discipline. It is interesting to see how maybe bigsis sees his counrty's fed and how the chinese skaters placements are being affected by their place in FS. I wish we had some insiders telling us how it works. Inqquiring mind (mine) is curious indeed. :)
 

cosmos

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Canada didn't fail. Scott hamilton won according to experts and there were figures then. Orser i think was the best free skater of his comp. years. Also, the USA was def more powerful a fed than Canada in the 80's. Our skaters had an advantage we no longer have. The battle of the Brians was so close. I do not know what was what, can't recall. I think Orser won the free skate. Can't recall. He made an error in his long I think, and boitano was perfect. It was so close. But again I think the USA was def more powerful in the 80's but not now.

Yuna had the basics, but she was clearly helped greatly in every way from the Canadian team based at cricket club. Without ALL they did for her and taught her, it easily would have been Mao as OGM. Yuna understands her first coaches could not take her from a girl who was Korean National Champion (where is korea? lol) and GPF champ to the next level. I understand she learned good technique as a young girl, but her Canadian team transformed her. To ask why Joannie did not win is rather Duh. Her mistakes were many. She might have been totally aweome (as opposed to just awesome) had her mother not dropped dead. I love her skating, and would rather watch Joannie do a gala than Yuna. After her mother died, Joannie skated with her heart and warmth. Yuna is a cool, cold skater. One does not feel her programs. At least many say so and I get the point. How could joannie win over a clean Yuna with her jumps done perfectly or a three triple axel mao who also skated very well.

No federation could cheat like that in an Olympics where every score is heavily scrutinized. That is the major reason why we have CoP. Fair judging. Vancouver was indeed fair.
Nobody denies YuNa learned a lot in Ceicket. But, What did Canada do as a nation for her win? Did Skate Canada back her at Olympics instead of Joanni? Absolutely not. As you said, Vancouver was fair and YuNa won fair. Why did you say Canada made her Olympic Chanpion?

I understand you do not feel her programs just as I do not feel programs of Mao and Joanni. That is what we call diversity. I think you don't seem to understand it. You like her or not, YuNa is one of the most popular skater in the world.
 
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Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
PCS scores are just as easy (or hard) to manipulate as pre COP scores; however, that's not saying that there was anything wrong going on here.

To whose benefit? You would have to have a majority of the judges selected to be scored in your pocket, and they would have to know how much the non-winning skater would be scored to counter. It's not like 6.0 where only the placements matter. Manipulating PCS scores would ONLY work if you know for sure your scores will be used, and by how much you need to counter the other skaters' scores. This is where ordinals are easier to manipulate because they provide a fixed value to work with. An additive system like CoP isn't as easy to game as an ordinal system.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Nobody denies YuNa learned a lot in Ceicket. But, What did Canada do as a nation for her win? Did Skate Canada back her at Olympics instead of Joanni? Absolutely not. As you said, Vancouver was fair and YuNa won fair. Why did you say Canada made her Olympic Chanpion?

I think the point was that Orser gave her all the tools she needed. Her technical proficiency and ability to handle unimaginable pressure from your country were perfected in Canada. I'm sure Orser politicked for Yuna too. I don't think it was realistic to expect her to skate that well in Vancouver, as favorites often struggle to produce their best at the Olys, so any politicking was unnecessary in the end.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Manipulating PCS scores would ONLY work if you know for sure your scores will be used, and by how much you need to counter the other skaters' scores.

Sure, but a lot of times the manipulated scores will count, so there's no reason for a judge not to try if that's what they want to do.
 
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