2012 Cup of Russia Short Dance | Page 6 | Golden Skate

2012 Cup of Russia Short Dance

blackswanphoto

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Well I'm glad that USFSA doesn't trash skaters based on one performance of one SD. Good lord! I get that you don't like the program, but we haven't even seen the FD yet. Last I heard, there are TWO segments in a competition.

People were saying the same thing last year when the exact same thing happened... We see how that turned out.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
People were saying the same thing last year when the exact same thing happened... We see how that turned out.

All I'm saying is we should wait to see the FD at THIS competition before we judge how they'll do this season. I don't think that's such an extreme thing to say.
 

blackswanphoto

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
All I'm saying is we should wait to see the FD at THIS competition before we judge how they'll do this season. I don't think that's such an extreme thing to say.

Fair enough... But I have seen it time and again when the Short Program leave such a bad impression in the eyes of the judges that it effects what they could have gotten in the free skate.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Fair enough... But I have seen it time and again when the Short Program leave such a bad impression in the eyes of the judges that it effects what they could have gotten in the free skate.

Actually, the Shibtuanis have come back from a subpar SD before. NHK, they were third behind I/K and W/P in the SD, and then they ended up winning the FD to win the whole competition. They did that in their debut season as well. As I said, they are definitely stronger FD skaters.
 

missysays

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
This!!!
The Shibutanis' SD is a terrible fit for them. It worked for D/D because they were fierce and charismatic and had on point choreography, otherwise music like that can make a programme appear aimless, which this one did. They've rightly recognized that they need to branch out artistically, but copying...sorry, "being influenced by" the Duchesnays doesn't strike me as either original or a good idea. V&M's FD is great, as is D&W's SD, not quite convinced yet by the three other programmes coming out of Canton. And I do agree that none of the teams look quite as technically sharp as we're used to see from them, even this early in the season. I do think the lack of Shpilband is noticeable there. But these are probably the usual growing pains in situations like this. I just hope it doesn't cost the Shibutanis their career that they're caught up in this transition.

You have articulated exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post. The choreography makes this program aimless and accentuates their weaknesses instead of their strengths.

And they have strengths- so many of them! This is a drastic mis-calculation for a team that I love. And it could very well ruin their career if they're not careful they are in a growing year right now and while they aren't fighting for gold in Sochi they will want to be positioned near or on the podium so they can be primed to fight for the lead position the year after the Olympics. As it stands now, they are giving Russia and the other countries politiking against them the perfect fodder to bury them down in the lower half of the top 10 or worst I can see them falling outside the top 10 this season. If they get buried a second year in a row, it could very well kill the natural momentum any team has when it comes on the international scene. I hope that this thinking is precipitate and won't come to pass!

Again, consider this is the FIRST competition for the Shibs. You can dispute they should have started earlier or whatever (there's a discussion going on their fan thread). Also consider this program is all but 3-4 weeks old (consider the commentators didn't even realize they changed programs (I don't understand Italian but I heard "Mary Poppins" a lot on the YouTube video!)!

They have a LOT of work to do, but I think Imaginary Pogue explained pretty well why this program could work with some extra time and refinement on it.

I don't think that the problem with this SD has anything to do with how much mileage it has on it. I think it's an intrinsic mis-match to what makes them shine as a team.

I for one am not trashing them I'm trying to think what would make things better for them.

I do hope their FD is great today. Can't wait to see it.
 

blackswanphoto

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Actually, the Shibtuanis have come back from a subpar SD before. NHK, they were third behind I/K and W/P in the SD, and then they ended up winning the FD to win the whole competition. They did that in their debut season as well. As I said, they are definitely stronger FD skaters.

We shall see. Im not sure if they are capable now though. They are not as good as before and have regressed technically. Before they also had a SD that was not as atrocious as the one they have this year.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
We shall see. Im not sure if they are capable now though. They are not as good as before and have regressed technically. Before they also had a SD that was not as atrocious as the one they have this year.

I'm not sure if they've regressed technically. They simply did not get the levels. That's more a matter of missing the key points or missing a rotation in a twzzle or a bracket in step sequence, etc. V/M and D/W also have been missing levels as well...so Team Canton will have to work on that.

Actually when you look at the +GOE scores, they did OK. They got mostly +1 with a dozen or so +2 sprinkled in, especially in the step sequence, which I like a lot. So the judges are saying as far as execution they were solid (though they can easily score more +GOE; they can get +3 on the twizzles)

ETA: Missysays I think summed it up well earlier RE: technical ability
As for others commenting on how their technical ability has dropped- I don't think that's accurate. I think they're capable of a great deal of difficult technical skating but that their sharpness and conditioning to make sure that all precise edges and minute point getting details are being hit isn't there yet this season. So what we're seeing is just a drop in levels and not in overall technique
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
ETA: Also consider that Isabelle and Paul were 27 and 29 when they did that program! Maia and Alex are only 18 and 21. So to expect them to be at the same level artistically is a bit much.
In the words of the immortal Clint Eastwood: "A man's gotta know his limitations." It's one thing to try to stretch oneself, but to use music and costuming that is clearly derivative of other skaters is to invite unfavorable comparisons when you can't remotely live up to it. I say again, early season or not, first time out or not, 3-4 weeks or not, this dog of a program is never going to hunt.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
The Shibs have not dropped technically, but just doing something "different" does not automatically make it good. Doing a "polka" to this music is really ridiculous. Can't image what Marina was thinking.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
In the words of the immortal Clint Eastwood: "A man's gotta know his limitations." It's one thing to try to stretch oneself, but to use music and costuming that is clearly derivative of other skaters is to invite unfavorable comparisons when you can't remotely live up to it. I say again, early season or not, first time out or not, 3-4 weeks or not, this dog of a program is never going to hunt.

Do you really want to quote someone who been talking to empty chairs? :laugh: I kid.

Seriously though, I'm a bit torn. My first inclination is also to trash it and start with something new; so if they end up doing that I won't be terribly disappointed about it. But after hearing Imaginary Pogue's comments, watching it several times (to see what IP was talking about) and watching it back to back with the Duchesnay program, I don't think it's a complete loss either. They have a beautiful opening step sequence that was well timed to the music.

YMMY (clearly, as we've seen in this discussion) -- but I can go either way as far as this SD. But the thing we learn with the Shibs is they work quite hard and are great about refining programs, even in a short time. (See last year's SD when they did two GP events back to back). So perhaps that is a case that they can do a new SD as well and quickly.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The worst issue for the Shibs is not the fact the Duchesnays skated to Dolencias & Sikuriade first, it is that I&K skated to this music as a folk dance OD when they won Jr. Worlds in 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jheh5ExzYnM

The sound on the above vid is dreadful. A better version is their JGPF version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U4DdgTkoRw&feature=related

A disastrous competition for the Shibs, who finished 4th overall and fourth in the OD.

BTW, the Duchesnay's used the version by Inti-Illimani, not Incantations
(and I Like the Inti Illimani versions better)
Dolencias
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9JhONozkco&feature=related
Sicuriades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2UlnSgsmvk&feature=related

Not to mention that there are lots of other songs by these groups, if you want to dance to Andean music :bang: You don't have to use the same 2 songs.

The Duchesnays also used Cachapaya, is by Incantations is this version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzltkPlKBWA
 
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all that

Final Flight
Joined
May 4, 2007
The trouble I have with the Shibs program is that they aren't connecting with the music at all. They have some interesting movements, but it's like they're doing the movements to the music, rather than dancing with the music. They aren't capturing the spirit of the pieces. Maybe because they started this program so late?
 

blancanieves

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
The trouble I have with the Shibs program is that they aren't connecting with the music at all. They have some interesting movements, but it's like they're doing the movements to the music, rather than dancing with the music. They aren't capturing the spirit of the pieces. Maybe because they started this program so late?

I agree with this, but my feelings aren't limited to this season. I think their skating is missing this overall. Of course, this is absolute personal perception. Having said that, plenty of dancers considered "technicians" go on to attain success so who's to say that the Shibs won't do the same in skating. But on a personal level, I need that additional level of mastery, and it's what separates the good from the great.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
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