Spoilers Ladies SP

So much I don't understand....

There is a lot that I do not understand about this ladies short program:

First of all, I do not like Sasha Cohen, but yes she should have won based upon technical errors by Michelle. I felt that Michelle's program was more intense and genuienly emotional, so I am surprised that she didn't get more 1sts. But overall, I will admit that Sasha did deserve 1st.


That said....

How can Amber Corwin be put in 5th? How is this possible? First, she should recieve deductions because she is sssslloowwwwwww. So slow! Not only that, but she lacks flair. In terms of her elements, her spirals have no stretch at all and her legs are bent, she triple toe-triple toe is prerotated and therefore a half turn cheated on the take off, her triple lutz has a half turn cheat on the landing, her double axel is wrapped and her spins are nothing to write home about. She does not have any elements that are of good quality. I felt that she should have been below Bebe and AP.

How can Jenny be 3rd and earn 1sts? She has the worst skating quality I have ever seen of a Senior Lady. She walks around the ice and is incredibly choppy and unrefined. Her jump technique is weird and while her 3t-3t is nice usually, her 3z is a flutz with a half turn cheat on the landing and her DA is wrapped. Her spirals aren't that good and her spins are just ok. Her atrocious skating deserves deductions.

How was Angela in 4th? Fourth would have been accurate if she was behind Sasha, Michelle and AP. Alright she skated clean, but those landings! Did you see how they hooked around! People say AP has hooked jumps on ocasion, but those landings were all shakey, off balance and hooked! Yes her layback is great and her camel has nice arch, but the spirals are bad and she is uninspring. She doesn't relate to the crowd.

What I would have had:

1.) Sasha-not as good artistically as Michelle, but cleaner
2.) Michelle-bobble on the DA cost her
3.) AP-she fell, but she was very fast and the other elements were good.
4.) Angela Nikodinov-she was clean, nothing special, but clean. Those twizzly landings though....
5.) Jenny-cheated jumps, choppy skating, etc. She was clean and they do have to reward it.
6.) Amber-slow, cheated jumps, bad technique, slow again, slow, slow but she was clean.
7.) Bebe-I wish I could put her ahead of Jenny and Amber, but all her jumps were not so good. She fell on a wild 3z, shaky DA (from those triples) plus a whipy and small 3f.

Re: So much I don't understand....

youarewhipped said:

3.) AP-she fell, but she was very fast and the other elements were good.

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This is the Short Program, and AP, as you said, FELL on one of the major elements. No way should she be placed above those who completed all the elements. Perhaps she could be forgiven in the LP had all other elements been superb. Also, she looked sluggish out there, her performance lacked the sparkle I've seen in some of her other skates. This was definitely not a memorable performance. I applaud the judges who obviously judged as they saw and not on potential. Amber has never been one of their favorites, but she did well, had a lot of energy and she was appropriately rewarded.

just some comments on MK resuing her SP.

firs off, like someone said earlier she only competed with it 3 times last year. So using it again isn't overuse by any means.
Even if she uses it again for Worlds, it will only have been used in competition 5 times. Thats less than what most top skaters do in a regular season.
Also Michelle has had over 20 competitive programs as a senior and has only reused 2 of them...not bad.

For those of you (or your husbands) who particularly enjoyed the camera angle on Michelle's spiral, check out the January 10-16 issue of TV Guide. There's a photo of Michelle on the Table of Contents page that shows, well, let's just say it shows that Michelle beats Sasha any minute of the day in one area (or should I say two?).

Also, just so I'm clear, I absolutely LOVED Jenny's personality and charm in her "Chicago" SP. As I said, I'm just genetically programmed to hate that music. In fact I hate most music from most musicals, but then I love music most people hate.

One thing I did think about this morning is what I think would be the SP made in heaven for Jenny. Nothing against Amber Corwin--she did her best for what she can do--but if there was ever a skater who could evoke Audrey Hepburn on the ice it's Jenny Kirk. She's even got the '60s style blonde streaks on brunette hair that Audrey had for "Breakfast at Tiffany's." I think Jenny skating to a good version of "Moon River" as an SP would be a knockout in a costume reminiscent of the "little black dress" Audrey wore and I think she could even carry off the opera gloves. Too bad Amber alread thought of it since I think Jenny doing "Moon River" a la Audrey Hepburn would be a match made in skating heaven.

Doggygirl,
Interesting question about how the placements would be under the COP. If I get a chance, I'll try doing the top four or five SP's using the COP. Sasha and Jenny's I have some base to use since they did the same basic SP's on the GP circuit, although as I said Sasha toned hers down a little. For Michelle and Angela I'd have to start from scratch and it would just be my opinion, but I can give it a try. Just for fun.
Rgirl

Jenny was on fire, and I loved it. I hope she skates her LP like she did at SA. Much joy in her skating.

Bebe - she does nothing for me. I don't see the fire Dick was talking about, I see a skater who, while cute, is immature in her skating, and could slow down a bit and perform all her movements to completing.

Angela - music a bit dull, but a lovely performance. However, reserved as usual. I'd love to see her skate with some fire. Overall, though, glad she had a good skate.

Sasha. Beautiful as usually. At the outset, seems as though Robin has taught her to slow down and focus. Could be a lethal combo, those two.

Michelle - loved the dress - simple yet interesting and elegant - but didn't seem suited for an athletic competition. Looked to me as though she hadn't practiced this program enough yet - still needed some dusting off from last year. I did really enjoy the changed straightline footwork, though.

Warning ... pic below doesn't leave much to the imagination. A newspaper saw it acceptable to print, so I'm assuming it's okay here ...

IDLERACER said:

[COLOR=0080FF]... but this time, I'm gonna have to give best cleavage to Michelle...[/COLOR]

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Idle, this one's for you ...

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/photos/skating/dayfive/image2.html

SP

I love MK and like Sasha, but Kirk had them beat. I think the headliners were held up b/c of their reputations. Kirk's has the best SP. However, it is obvious that the judges will rather crown Sasha with the gold. Right now, she is the total package, technique and style, or least that's what the media's writing.

MK- her SP seemed tight and reserved. She needs to compete in more events next year for practice. Yet, MK never dissappoints her fans; she is golden, and there is not much to say about how she skates. She is a legend in her sport.

SC- SP was reserved and flawless, about time. Wagner is a coach that knows how to calm nervous skaters down. Sasha deserves to win national b/c her programs are really complete. The only uniqueness about her is that she is very flexible and able to hit positions that less flexible skaters cannot. I feel the judges will reward her for natural talent. What if SH wants to skate next year? Will she go with another coach, I wonder?

JK-I love her personality and spark. Her technique is 100% on cue. She knows how to work an audience, smile throughout the whole program w/o force. Her SP playful moves in the field and footwork is beyond comparison. She had the best SP skate of the night; Her extension could improve, but she has faster spins and hits truly low sit spins.

Prediction
1. Sasha Cohen- America really wants someone new and the media is ready to go full force on blowing her up as the next Olympian. I think her skating is about flexiblity not musicality. Thanks to TT coaching team, SC has complete programs that hide weakness and improve strengths, which forces many to say Cohen's really great. I don't know if we'll see that next year w/ Wagner.
2. Jenny Kirk-She is great and will out perform Sasha in personality and an audience connection. She is all about the music, a real dancer on ice. Her extensions, crossovers, and spiral will have to improve, along w/ constitency.
3. Michelle Kwan- She is one of the best but Tosca is overrated. She seems a bit out of practice and her jumps don't seem solid. I except to see Arthurian's real work at World's not nationals. The judges don't favor MK anymore. I hope I am wrong and she wins, b/c she is my favorite skater, but I can't ignore other skaters talent's. However, I only see the judges rewarding her the silver medal or bronze, period. Meancing sex appeal or whatever the men on goldenskate are saying doesn't win gold medals.

I really hope JK wins. The LP is not very predictable.

Re: SP

April said:

I love MK and like Sasha, but Kirk had them beat. I think the headliners were held up b/c of their reputations. Kirk's has the best SP. However, it is obvious that the judges will rather crown Sasha with the gold. Right now, she is the total package, technique and style, or least that's what the media's writing.

MK- her SP seemed tight and reserved. She needs to compete in more events next year for practice. Yet, MK never dissappoints her fans; she is golden, and there is not much to say about how she skates. She is a legend in her sport.

SC- SP was reserved and flawless, about time. Wagner is a coach that knows how to calm nervous skaters down. Sasha deserves to win national b/c her programs are really complete. The only uniqueness about her is that she is very flexible and able to hit positions that less flexible skaters cannot. I feel the judges will reward her for natural talent. What if SH wants to skate next year? Will she go with another coach, I wonder?

JK-I love her personality and spark. Her technique is 100% on cue. She knows how to work an audience, smile throughout the whole program w/o force. Her SP playful moves in the field and footwork is beyond comparison. She had the best SP skate of the night; Her extension could improve, but she has faster spins and hits truly low sit spins.

Prediction
1. Sasha Cohen- America really wants someone new and the media is ready to go full force on blowing her up as the next Olympian. I think her skating is about flexiblity not musicality. Thanks to TT coaching team, SC has complete programs that hide weakness and improve strengths, which forces many to say Cohen's really great. I don't know if we'll see that next year w/ Wagner.
2. Jenny Kirk-She is great and will out perform Sasha in personality and an audience connection. She is all about the music, a real dancer on ice. Her extensions, crossovers, and spiral will have to improve, along w/ constitency.
3. Michelle Kwan- She is one of the best but Tosca is overrated. She seems a bit out of practice and her jumps don't seem solid. I except to see Arthurian's real work at World's not nationals. The judges don't favor MK anymore. I hope I am wrong and she wins, b/c she is my favorite skater, but I can't ignore other skaters talent's. However, I only see the judges rewarding her the silver medal or bronze, period. Meancing sex appeal or whatever the men on goldenskate are saying doesn't win gold medals.

I really hope JK wins. The LP is not very predictable.

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I think a splatfest will ensue during the long program. I don't see any of the top ladies skating clean programs, because none of them have all year. As Scott Hamilton once said- "To get through a short program is one thing; to get through a long program is something else entirely." JK and MK have all had two clean performances back to back. I know JK's came at Junior Worlds in 2000, but that was still 2 clean performances. Sasha hasn't. I also get the feeling that Sasha doesn't love skating- that she skates to prove something to people, that she's better than everyone. I also get the same vibe from AP. Not the same with Amber, MK, JK, and Beatrisa.

I saw Yebin's practice, and she definitely has not yet fully recovered from her stress fracture in her back. She can do a 3s and a 3t, but her trademark 3lutz is missing. And I haven't seen her try a 3loop even. She skated her new SP to Bolero, which is a beautifully choreographed program, but she took a revolution off everything. She wasn't landing anything in the warmup, so I guess that's why she did that. This has got to be a horrible Nationals for Frank.

I am ROFL about Dick comparing Danielle Kahle to Tara. She's tiny and the hair is identical. The jumps aren't there yet, though.

Stephanie Rosenthal, 16, of Bountiful Utah has great power and speed, but is a big solid girl. If any US lady is going to land a 3A anytime soon, it might be Stephanie. Her 2A's are huge. She does have her other jumps, but doesn't have the consistency yet.
She also connects well to the music. Did a Huge 2a, a 3flip with step to 2t. Has a decent layback.

Alissa Czisny has gorgeous spirals and a nice Charlotte. She also does a split falling leaf and a donut biellman. Weird wrap on the 3lutz though, if that's what it was. Hope she can get it together. I like her, althought The Mission (the movie) is not my favorite music.

The super most interesting thing about the SP are the changes that Robin has made in Sasha in what, 2 weeks? She has gotten Sasha to get a really great edge on the first spiral, ditch the fan and skid spirals, which look good but, are all position and no edge. She's got her flip so that it looks good, and it used to be identical to her flutz, same wiggly in and out. Robin gave her a really nice hug. And she got a real standing ovation. Which she didn't get at Skate America. Her speed seems a bit better too.
Go Robin!!!!

I like Jane Bugaeva. I hope she will skate the LP as she did at sectionals. She has good speed, and the 3flip was ok, but she fell on her combo. Her spirals don't cover any ground though.

Bebe-lots of attitude, a good flying sit with position change. I could do without the 40's bathing suit style costume for Carmen. Her spirals are good, and her spins are. But she has similar landing problems to Sasha's old landings.

Angela-I thought the 3lutz was 2footed in the combo, but Angela gets a better lutz edge than any American that Yebin and now Michelle. And that's one reason she's ahead of Amber. She has this quick little turns in the f/w that I like too. She was very concentrated on landing stuff-she has improved a ton since sectionals but still has a way to go in recovery.

Michelle has no trouble doing 2A's with Arutunians changes. I saw her do 4 2A's , one each 90 degrees in a circle, in a practice
2a, step step, 2a, step step, 2a, step step, 2a. Kool.
I don't know what happened on her 2a, but I thought the whole program looked careful and didn't have the fire of DC's TFB.
But I like the new dress!! She got a standing O too. ANd you wouldn't believe the number of signs.

Jenny has a great 3t/3t!! And I love her look and dress for that Chicago program. She likes the silly flapper role, and stayed in role in the kiss and cry, which I though was very funny. Yes, I know she flutzes. And I thought her SA performance of this program was significantly better. The audience was more into it.

For anyone who thought AP skated well, no she didn't in my opinion. She was first up. She skated around, back pumping to work up speed. She did a 2A with a wicked lean, but landed it. She blew her combo on the first jump and did not have much f/w before the 3flip, which she also 2 footed (you could hear it as well as see it) Her donut spin is kind of awkward. And her spiral, while better than Amber's is still not great. So I have no problem having her behind Amber in this SP.

Felicia Beck is a cutie with lots of personality, and she has a great final Bielman where she pumps the foot that's over the head in time to the music. Way cool. However, all her jumps failed her.

I have heard good things about LouAnn Donovan, but her program did nothing for me.

Jenny Don performed with great drama and speed, and is choreographed by Paul Wylie. But personally, I think she should stick with pairs, because it is darn hard to succeed in US ladies without all your triples.

Andrea Gardiner skated about as usual 3lutz2toe with a wide swinging free leg. 2foot on the 2axel, travelled on the camel spin, has wicked power in the spirals if not the greatest position.

I also get the feeling that Sasha doesn't love skating- that she skates to prove something to people, that she's better than everyone. I also get the same vibe from AP. Not the same with Amber, MK, JK, and Beatrisa.

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That's a very interesting theory and one I can't discount. Too bad you don't have to prove that you love skating to win a National Title. Should be a criteria, don't you think? 42

Re: Re: SP

thisthingcalledlove said:

I also get the feeling that Sasha doesn't love skating- that she skates to prove something to people, that she's better than everyone.

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I think that Sasha LOVES to skate. I think her stress comes from wanting to prove that she's as good as so many people (press and others) say she is, and that she is worthy of all the praise she has received. She wants to prove the naysayers wrong. In her SP, I saw joy in her skating--something I have not seen before in her. Great to see it--FINALLY!

Ah, what one Vera Wang neckline can do for Idle and Mathman, lol.

But seriously, I think Tharrtell is right that it wasn't quite suited for athletic competition. Although, man, wouldn't that make a gawgeous, I mean gawgeous! full or cocktail length dress for Michelle. Anyway, I agree with Mathman that the costume for TFB last year was the right color and style for the program.

Doris, thanks yet again for another wonderful, insightful, and objective report. It's great to read someone's reactions without psychobabble and old cliches that only reveal the writer's dislike for a skater. Of course people are free to write whatever they want as long as they don't bash, although people still find ways to make sure they let people know they think a skater is "undeserving." A skater somebody doesn't like skates well and suddenly it's "but I can tell she doesn't really like to skate." A skater who can consistently do clean 3t/3t "has the world's worst technique." Michelle is in 2nd rather than 1st after the SP even though she made two mistakes and "the judges don't like her anymore." I'm not quoting people exactly, just putting my paraphrasing in quotes. Each of the top three ladies after the SP have received standing ovations, they each have strengths they use to their advantage and weaknesses they work to minimize, and IMO they're all of an age that they would not be putting themselves through all this and doing so well if they didn't love skating. Certainly Michelle has received the most SOs and rightfully so. No skater has been at the top as long as Michelle and I still have her tagged for the OGM in '06. All three are very different skaters, but to me that's a plus. Of course the skater's need the day to rest between the short and long; it's just too bad it gives us nothing much to do besides kvetch--unless we're also pairs and dance fans. Anyway, I guess such posts just mean "It's NATIONALS!"

As for Angela, Amber, and AP: I agree with the person who said Angela looks good considering all she's been through, but she doesn't appear to be 100%. I agree with the people who said that while Amber had good jumps, she's lacking in areas such as line and flow. AP has been battling an injury all season and perhaps that's affecting her, but whatever the case, as Realtorgal said, "It's the SP and a fall costs you." Doris's report also gave a lot of insight into why AP finished so low. Hopefully AP will regroup from whatever it is that has affected her this season and come back blazin' next fall.

One question, though, for Doris: When you say Robin took out Sasha's "fan spiral," which move do you mean? If you mean the move where she does the full turn with the free-leg up to the side in the catch-foot position, Tarasova took that out after SA. If you mean the move where her free leg is extended to the front and she's leaning back slightly, that's been part of Sasha's SP spiral sequence all season. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, especially given all you had to watch, recall, and report. Just wondering about nomenclature and because I know TT made changes to both Sasha's SP and LP throughout the GP series, I'm sure it's difficult to keep track of what was in Sasha's programs when.

One request for Piel: Please post on these threads at least twice a day to keep reminding us all that we're here because we love and enjoy figure skating, not because we love dissing skaters we don't like. Although there are forums for that, too, just not GS ROFL at your 6.0 post. Yeah, I hope the judges are reading all this so they know how to judge, lol.
Rgirl

rgirl, I have been calling the spiral that looks like a blues turn a fan spiral, and the one where her leg is up in the BC position and she turns the skid spiral.

My most vivid memory of Sasha's SP would be DC last year, SA this year. I missed her SP on the other grand prix broadcasts.

So it just looked very different to me. I had no idea the Charlotte had gotten back in there.

dpp

Thanks for clarifying, Doris. We're calling the same spirals the same thing, so it's probably that Tarasova made so many changes, especially to Sasha's spiral and footwork sequences both between this season and last and after both SA and SC, that caused some confusion. I watched every one of Sasha's SPs and I get confused over what was in and out when. Anyway, the fan spiral was in the other night, but Robin had Sasha doing it on a curve rather than across the flat, so it had more of an edge to it.
Rgirl

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!!!

Just wanted to say a huge thanks to everyone who is in the US, and has shared nationals thus far with those of us who are not

I'm currently performing in the Ukraine, and US nationals aren't on TV here. They're not on Eurosport anywhere, according to friends across England, France, Italy and Germany, which is real annoying for those of us who are passionate about many US skaters but only ever get to see those who make the Worlds team skate

Once again huge thanks for the detail on the programs of skaters like Jenny (who I might just get to see at Worlds now, fingers crossed!), Bebe, AP, Ye Bin and Angela ...

And thanks as always for the reports on Sasha and Michelle, two of my all-time favourites!

Looking forward (with a certain nauseous fear of splatfest infecting those I wish to do well), to the free skate tonight.

THANKS HEAPS TO EVERYONE!

Best, Lilia

Rgirl said:

Michelle ... made two mistakes...

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I've read that elsewhere. What "2" mistakes? I only recall the wonky(very wonky)-yet clean axel. What is the other mistake?

Re: So much I don't understand....

youarewhipped said:

I felt that Michelle's program was more intense and genuienly emotional, so I am surprised that she didn't get more 1sts.

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Well, maybe the judges thought she looked genuinely pissed?

Anyway, my thoughts:

Cohen: LOVED IT! I thought of not watching her jumps (too much heartache in the past), but I did... and boy, was I glad! I'm so very happy for her. Thank you, Sasha, now don't forget you're Da Swan! I'm really loving US and Russian Nats so far.

Kwan: very nice dress, even though it seemed like the straps might strangle her... And I was waiting for something to pop out any second, lol. It was close. The choreography looked a little empty to me, but I really liked the footwork. I'm sure she'll be ready for LP, and I hope Sasha will be, too. Should be a great face off.

Kirk: a beautiful dress, and a great program for her. She was almost as good as at SA. I hope she's going to be consistent from now on (again?). Corwin: I think this program suits her. Liang: has a loooong way to go. AP: it wasn't her day. Nikodinov: is a female equivalent of Savoie to me (my mind just wanders off).

Hi Pati...

In addition to the shaky landing, Michelle finished after the music. It was very noticeable.

DG

Re: Hi Pati...

Doggygirl said:

In addition to the shaky landing, Michelle finished after the music. It was very noticeable.

DG

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Oh that! No actually she didn't Doggygirl. That music ends with a wind sighing sound, that no one ever hears because the crowd starts roaring. I hear its quite evident in practice. There was a dance couple that used it also and received the same criticism. Michelle also finished the program in the exact same place last year. Thanx I feel better now

Finally saw a clip of Michelle's performance. Apart from the scary DA landing she skated well. "Well", but definitely not the best she can do. The dress scared the crap out of me, can't say I liked it much. After that spiral all I could focus on was her left mammary, sad to say. It was that distracting to me. It seemed like she cut her spiral a little short because she could feel the top slipping.
Like with Sasha's Mag, I much preferred the old dresses they used but I understand the need to try and freshen up an old program.