2012 NHK Trophy Mens Free Skate | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2012 NHK Trophy Mens Free Skate

Kalina

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
I was under the impression that inflation referred to Chan winning thanks to his super-high PCs scores, cushioning him when he had less than stellar performances. I am not sure how Hanyu getting 78 in PCS could be considered inflation. Curiously, these are almost exactly the same components he got at Rostelecom Cup last year, when with a comparable performance in the free skate (fall on rotated quad and fall on the footwork, and a lower base value than today due to having only one quad) he beat Fernandez to gold and qualified for the Grand Prix Final. And he was virtually nobody to the judges back then, never been to Worlds, fourth at the previous GP.
With that said, up to now I don't like his free skate much, and his low PCs are more than justified by the fact that they lightened up the choreography as much as possible so that he could get to the end of the program. Orser and Wilson probably made that choice of music because they felt that it would have forced him to pace himself and pay more attention to his lines and arm positions, but right now he still has to work on that a lot. He's always been a bit rushed in his movements, something that works well with stronger programs like his SP or Romeo last year, but doesn't go well with soft music. It's not like he can't do it period, but he probably can't do it right now in a competition program: his Swan Lake program ended up looking much better as an EX, for example. With experience it will get better. His stamina too is a bit better, but could still be much improved. It's something that takes time, and I hope he continues doing run-throughs. Still, I think that interpretation-wise this was way better than Finlandia, when he was so much focused on landing every jump and getting to the end that he almost seemed to forget there was music in the background.
I do like that they changed the layout: having two triple axel combinations in the second half is smart and racks up more points, and so is changing the last jump to a lutz and doing it earlier in the program. His flip is more unstable compared to his lutz, and tiredness makes him lip noticeably, like he did in Finlandia. Another smart thing is moving the Biellmann spin at the beginning of the program: when he did it at the end of his free skate last year it was always veeery slow and laboured, I don't think he ever got a level 4 for that one at the end. Today he did.

About Daisuke: I like his programs better than I did at the beginning of the season. His artistry is not under discussion, but when I look at the programs he's skating now and the programs he was skating last year, I find them forgettable. He could do so much better. I'm not sure if this is Morozov's fault, but I can't help but think it is. The free skate looks suspiciously as if he's put his hands over it, I can't believe that choreography is just Shae-Lynn and no one else. Still, he's great and the only thing he needs to work on right now is consistency on his jumps. The improvements he's made with the quad in the past two years are tremendous, but he's competing with guys that have better consistency on that jump and can easily make it look effortless (Fernandez, Hanyu, Chan when he's on) and unfortunately one very good quad can top any PCS advantage he might have. I'm pretty sure he knows this and that he knows what to do, though.
Also, our commentator (who's a huge fan of Daisuke and usually does a pretty bad job of concealing it) remarked at the end of his free skate, that yes his interpretation was very good as usual, but that she'd been very let down by the fact that he didn't do much in terms of transitions. She literally said "I was jotting down the transitions while we were watching the program and all I could write was 'crossovers, crossovers, crossovers'." She said that in comparison to last season's programs this is a huge difference and that it might be because of the higher tech content. I am not an expert so I can't comment on this, though.
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
It was great that Rippon had a strong freeskate, ditto for Miner. Dornbush had some mistakes, but his choreography to the music is the best among the US men here, IMO.

I like the programmes of Takahashi and Hanyu very much. Fernandez though had the best programme, in my opinion. Good that he managed to get into the Final. It definetely was not his day...



I have watched figure skating since early sixties and seen lots of my big favorites leaving the eligible competitions. After a while always new favourites have appeared. Skaters come and go, but the sport of figure skating stays and continues.

I can't explain it, I don't like figure skating so much as before.
 

lakeside

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Something’s wrong with this competition. Everyone’s getting much lower PCS than they normally would get at other comps, except Fernandez and Takahashi. Rippon got 67, Voronov 66, Dornbush 70, and Ross 75 with TES of 86! Oh really? What were the judges smoking? I think almost everyone is underscored in PCS except Fernandez and Takahashi.

Okay lakeside, if you're reading this -- you do have a case with PCS and Javier at this competition. It is odd that he got the same PCS as Ross who skated a beautiful FS.
Thanks. I’m glad you see that now. Ross is very talented, and his skating skills and posture are better than Fernandez. I think Ross is underscored here, probably due to the fact that he lacks the reputation. Wish he’ll skate this well at US Nationals and makes the world team. :agree:

I agree with you on all counts. Kind of anticlimatic in the Mens Comp to see somebody win with a flawed and draggy skate like this.
He certainly should have lost the long program.
If you think Yuzru should not have won the LP, then who do you think should have won it? Takahashi’s skate was also flawed. His TES was only 80, and it should have been lower because he URed more than one jump and he got lucky that the tech panel didn't call that 3lz3t >. His second 4t could’ve been >> too.

I also think Takahashi’s PCS should have been only 2 or 3 points higher than Yuzru instead of 4.28 points. Yuzru had more speed than Takahashi throughout the program. Yes, Yuzru slowed down a lot in the last minute of his program, but he was still faster than Takahashi, and Takahashi did not have his trademark StSq here, either. Yuzru’s transitions were better than Takahashi in terms of quantity and difficulty. Choreography-wise, I think Yuzru had a better choreo, but in terms of performance and interpretation, Takahashi was definitely better here. Overall, Takahashi should have a 2 or 3 point lead in PCS.

Ross was the only one clean here, but his basic skating skills and transitions are not on par with Takahashi and Yuzru. However, PCS of 75 is still too low for his skate and he should get 77. He got a lot of +GOEs, but his BV was much lower than Yuzru, whose LP is just so technically difficult that nobody else is capable of skating it cleanly now.

Mrs. P, are you still keeping track of TESs and PCSs? IIRC, Yuzru’s TES of 88.93 is the highest TES in the GP series, and it’s scary that he achieved this with several big mistakes. So he changed his jump layout from SA? Now it looks even more difficult than before, with 4t, 4s, and two 3a combos in the second half! And he still keeps that crazy footwork into 3a, but now it’s 3a combo in the second half, more difficult than before. Plus, he doesn’t even have a 3s, as if 3s is too easy for him. Wow, nobody else is capable of skating this program.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Oh my goodness... I think I saw flashes of Johnny Weir at NHK. Did anyone look at Hanyu's fs costume? spandex meets splatter paint and does battlen with bedazzler and a froufrou ruffle. What the ????? I also do not like the way the cross is used on costumes. It is almost sacriligious.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Something’s wrong with this competition. Everyone’s getting much lower PCS than they normally would get at other comps, except Fernandez and Takahashi. Rippon got 67, Voronov 66, Dornbush 70, and Ross 75 with TES of 86! Oh really? What were the judges smoking? I think almost everyone is underscored in PCS except Fernandez and Takahashi.


Thanks. I’m glad you see that now. Ross is very talented, and his skating skills and posture are better than Fernandez. I think Ross is underscored here, probably due to the fact that he lacks the reputation. Wish he’ll skate this well at US Nationals and makes the world team. :agree:



If you think Yuzru should not have won the LP, then who do you think should have won it? Takahashi’s skate was also flawed. His TES was only 80, and it should have been lower because he URed more than one jump and he got lucky that the tech panel didn't call that 3lz3t >. His second 4t could’ve been >> too.

I also think Takahashi’s PCS should have been only 2 or 3 points higher than Yuzru instead of 4.28 points. Yuzru had more speed than Takahashi throughout the program. Yes, Yuzru slowed down a lot in the last minute of his program, but he was still faster than Takahashi, and Takahashi did not have his trademark StSq here, either. Yuzru’s transitions were better than Takahashi in terms of quantity and difficulty. Choreography-wise, I think Yuzru had a better choreo, but in terms of performance and interpretation, Takahashi was definitely better here. Overall, Takahashi should have a 2 or 3 point lead in PCS.

Ross was the only one clean here, but his basic skating skills and transitions are not on par with Takahashi and Yuzru. However, PCS of 75 is still too low for his skate and he should get 77. He got a lot of +GOEs, but his BV was much lower than Yuzru, whose LP is just so technically difficult that nobody else is capable of skating it cleanly now.

Mrs. P, are you still keeping track of TESs and PCSs? IIRC, Yuzru’s TES of 88.93 is the highest TES in the GP series, and it’s scary that he achieved this with several big mistakes. So he changed his jump layout from SA? Now it looks even more difficult than before, with 4t, 4s, and two 3a combos in the second half! And he still keeps that crazy footwork into 3a, but now it’s 3a combo in the second half, more difficult than before. Plus, he doesn’t even have a 3s, as if 3s is too easy for him. Wow, nobody else is capable of skating this program.

I need to update the score list in a bit, so thanks for the reminder. :)
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
^it was a response to me who said how cool is it that all of the men finalists won a competition, which is inaccurate, only 5 of them did and Dai did not.

Five GP winners rightfully qualified to GPF. Except Takahashi, of course. :sarcasm: Who was the the only boy won a GP but not qualified to the Final? Takahito Mura at TEB...Not syaing Mura did not deserve the win because I was 'super-excited' for Takahito last week. However, Takahashi could have won TEB with these two performances from this weekend, I belive. I balme it JSF. I blamed it from the beginning. Upon the announcement of GP participants. To entry both Dai and Yuzuru at this NHK for a huge media attention and ticket sales. :mad:&:eek:hwell:

I liked how Dai dealt with all this stuff (of course, he is so experienced in it :sarcasm:). He looked so happy after his second quad and then when he finished his prog, as if it didn't really matter much what he will get at the end. Good to see him so relaxed. I hope other stuff they will fix too by major events.

Thanks a lot for saying it for me, Let's talk. We have seen this before. Many times.

P.S. Ross Miner made my day of a rather depressing Mens/Ladies Free Skates for me. Thank you so much, Ross!
But your SP shirt needs to go. You are not one of the 'Startreck' crews on duty, are you? :laugh:

Also, am so glad to see Voronov skated that well and his smiles at this NHK, after going thru unfortunate numerous injuries over the years! Just like Ross Miner's and Kevin Reynolds' for me, the more I see him skate, the more I like it and root for him. Wishing him and Menshov two very good skates at the Russian Nationals!
 

Niki2012

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Takahashi is an ice coverage king. He skated so close to the fences maintaining speed. I wonder how many distances he skated. His CC could be bit higher. I saw Miner`s program first time this year… I like it. If he can refine it, it will be great program. Poor Fernandez… but he showed his guts by maintaining facial expression of Chaplin throughout the program even after jump mistakes and odd falls. He looked pale from warm up, hopefully, he is not sick or injured. Well..Hanyu… he again visibly lost speed from midpoint like he did gear change.:unsure: Current program is too much for him to handle. As long as he keeps getting high score, it would not be a learning process for him. That is not good for him and figure skating as a sport.:slink:
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
And he got properly hit with minus GOE for that.
... and that was -0.77 for the spin on his butt, which is rather generous to say the least.
Its not like Hanyu got PCS in the upper nines
So, you are saying that we should be grateful that judges didn't give him 9s for the prog with multiple falls? And this is your argument on Yuzuflation in the contrast of inflation. Wonderful.
he beat Fernandez to gold and qualified for the Grand Prix Final.
There were a lot of justified talks that he shouldn't have won CoR at all last year, that's the gold belonged to Javi, and not without the reasons, since you want to talk about dead horses.
What were the judges smoking?

Overall, Takahashi should have a 2 or 3 point lead in PCS.
I agree with you- judges were smoking. 4 points lead over some exhausted kid with sausage-like body with rubber spinal cord with bad posture is surely the result of smoking, but at least smoking something legal, unlike with 2 or 3 points lead if we had had such a case.


Yuzu always had physical problems. Abe just knew his body better than anyone else and she managed to hide his issues more or less. Plus Natalya opened up his better artistic qualities that finally ended in three magnificient progs that he had las season. Now Orser is just working him out like a typical student and all Hanyu's issues are here. Enjoy. If they keep doing like that, Yuzu won't survive after Sochi.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
^^ (Re deedee's #149 post): Ross may have gotten the idea for his sp costume from a costume Evan wore in a few preseason shows (designed by Vera Wang). ;) I think Ross looks fine, plus he has great programs that suit him. I agree with one of the earlier posters who said that Ross is resilient as well as a hard worker. He's also very consistent and I'm happy to see him land that quad and stick the rest of his program too and be rewarded. It's brave of him to keep working hard at the quad and putting it into his competitive performances. Ross is such a consistent skater that I think the few mistakes he made in sp at this and his other GP are totally related to his focus on perfecting the quad. However, he didn't shy away from working things out, and at least this time, when he faltered on getting the quad in the sp, he did not allow it to derail any of his other jumps. Because he skated so well in the majority of his sp, he was able to pull out a season's best score in the sp, which gave him confidence for the fp and he was great. ITA that Ross also has wonderful posture in comparison to both Fernandez and Hanyu. While Ross can continue to improve his artistry and presentation, he has well-choreographed programs (Tom Dickson), and I feel that he has charisma in the way it's evident how much he enjoys skating.

I agree. The way Hanyu looked is due to 1) lack of stamina, 2) lack of connection to music, 3) poor posture & SS. In consequence, in between elements he just didn't look like anything to write home about. He needs John Curry to have taught him skating before learning to jump.

When I saw Dai at JO I thought his Pagliacci was a masterpiece and that Leoncavallo would have cried watching him skate it like that and wondered what the Italian commentators would say at GPs. Since then I have seen it twice and it's as though it were a different programme skated by a different skater.

Exactly! ITA with you 100%. Despite the fact that Hanyu skated technically brilliantly in his sp, I don't feel he should be receiving PCS so high in either sp or fp. Hanyu is a precocious skater, but he lacks maturity and endurance. Time and again, he's able to skate a beautiful and technically clean sp and the judges go gaga, and then Hanyu fades in the longer fp, but because he was so over-scored in sp, he still wins.

ITA with your assessment of Dai's programs too. I saw things the same as you at JO, but I don't know what has happened since then, because I am just not impressed with either of Dai's programs this season. Yes, last season Dai raised the bar so high (and he should have won Worlds 2012 -- that will go down in history as an awful decision by the judges). For now, I wish the judges would allow Hanyu to prove he can build stamina and let him further develop his artistry, because he's clearly over-scored in both TES and PCS in my honest opinion. He's immature musically and artistically -- they need to let his developing maturity catch up with his technical feats.

IMO, Ross is a better overall skater than Machida and Mura too! I hope slow and steady will ultimately win the race for Ross. And I hope Jeremy gains physical and mental strength to persevere at Nationals and Worlds because his programs this season IMO are two of the best among the men. I like Jeremy's sp, Javi's sp, Ross' sp, Richard's sp, Machida's sp, D10's sp, Chan's sp, and Hanyu's sp is technically superb but he's simply trying to copy Dai's sp of last season with the jazzy theme and posings. I look at Hanyu and I feel amazed when he jumps so spectacularly in his sp, but I don't feel engaged emotionally at all in either of his programs. Kozuka also has some good programs this season and he will be very competitive. Oda is a great jumper and his sp is okay, better than his fp IMO.

Re fp's: Jeremy, Ross, Chan, D10. (I also think Joshua Farris and Keegan Messing have shown very good programs this season, along with Jason Brown, so they should all be competitive at U.S. Nationals). I think Javi's fp is fun and okay for him, but I'm not blown away by it. Hanyu has a well put together fp, but again I think his maturity needs to catch up with his precocity, and it goes without saying he needs to improve his posture and his endurance. Hanyu reminds me of a loose, bendable gumby doll.

Sorry about Murakami's injury in the sp. I hope he is recovering and free from pain now.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Yuzu always had physical problems. Abe just knew his body better than anyone else and she managed to hide his issues more or less. Plus Natalya opened up his better artistic qualities that finally ended in three magnificient programs that he had last season. Now Orser is just working him out like a typical student and all Hanyu's issues are here. Enjoy. If they keep doing like that, Yuzu won't survive after Sochi. :

....wow.
 
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Butterscotch17

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
I haven't read through this thread yet, because I've been busy, and I managed to avoid the figure skating boards today so that I could watch the men's event in all of its suspense tonight on TV. It was a deep field and it lived up to my expectations. So after just finishing watching the event, I just had a few thoughts.

No one impressed me more at this competition than Ross Miner. However, I have believed since he first won bronze at U.S. Nats a couple seasons back that he was capable of great things. I have him pegged for the next American star that the U.S. is desperately looking for. Some say that it is Richard Dornbush, but Miner is far more consistent than Dornbush in my opinion, and I believe he has that star quality. He should make the World team this season, hopefully. But bronze in this field was quite an accomplishment and I am very happy for him.

After Javier's program, I just wanted to reach through the TV screen and give him a hug. Poor guy. He's capable of so much more than that, I think just the hard fall on that quad must have really thrown him off for the rest of the program. However, I have to admit, I was happy that Ross got the bronze medal over Javi - Javi still makes the GPF, where he has a chance to redeem himself. And he is just so darn charming; I'm well on my way to becoming huge fan :)

Daisuke skated well, not his best, but still good. His Pagliacci program is definitely growing on me, and I think it's improving. However, while two silvers and making the GPF is good, but I hope it will not hurt his confidence being beaten by two other Japanese men this season. Not the results he was probably looking for, but I think Dai is on the right track to keep improving and hopefully peak at the right time - Worlds.

Yuzuru was also very impressive to me. His short program made me say "wow". He's so adorable and he has so much talent it's crazy - he's the definition of "gifted". His free skate was good, but not great, and I have to say when I saw his scores, I was surprised. I thought they were a little high for those two rather large errors he made. (I know bringing up the word "overscored" is just asking for an argument, but I don't want to argue, I swear!) Yuzuru did deserve to win overall, but I really felt that Daisuke was better in the free skate. However, that's just my opinion after seeing it once, and I don't wish to take anything away from Yuzuru who had a great victory today. He skated well and beating Dai at NHK is quite an accomplishment for him.

Congrats to all the medalists, and better luck to Javier in the Final. Now I'll go back and read the thread, and see if anyone agrees with me :)
 

kimganos

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
... and that was -0.77 for the spin on his butt, which is rather generous to say the least. So, you are saying that we should be grateful that judges didn't give him 9s for the prog with multiple falls? And this is your argument on Yuzuflation in the contrast of inflation. Wonderful.
There were a lot of justified talks that he shouldn't have won CoR at all last year, that's the gold belonged to Javi, and not without the reasons, since you want to talk about dead horses.

I agree with you- judges were smoking. 4 points lead over some exhausted kid with sausage-like body with a rubber spinal cord with posture problemis surely is the result of smoking, but at least smoking something legal, unlike with 2 or 3 points lead if we had had such a case.


Yuzu always had physical problems. Abe just knew his body better than anyone else and she managed to hide his issues more or less. Plus Natalya opened up his better artistic qualities that finally ended in three magnificient programs that he had last season. Now Orser is just working him out like a typical student and all Hanyu's issues are here. Enjoy. If they keep doing like that, Yuzu won't survive after Sochi.

Wow, some of this post is just so uncalled for!
 
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Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
let's talk said:
Yuzu always had physical problems. Abe just knew his body better than anyone else and she managed to hide his issues more or less. Plus Natalya opened up his better artistic qualities that finally ended in three magnificient programs that he had last season. Now Orser is just working him out like a typical student and all Hanyu's issues are here. Enjoy. If they keep doing like that, Yuzu won't survive after Sochi.

And it's so nice how much fun you have with the thought of Yuzu "not surviving after Sochi". So much unreasonable resentment, wow.
 
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giulia95

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
I think Nanami has been able to handle Yuzu'asthma, not to hide it.... from a strictly physical point of view Yuzu is a miracle before than an amazing skater....

It seems Orser has started learning the lesson...
 
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let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
And it's so nice how much fun you have with the thought of Yuzu "not surviving after Sochi".
Where do you see "fun" in my post? The biggrin and my "Enjoy!" refers to those posters who justify the Orser's work with Yuzu who can't finish skating his FS normally, and not to Yuzu's fate as it is. His fate could be different if he were on other hands. But he is not. Since you like it, then yeah, it's fun to see that. :popcorn:
 

Kalina

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
Where do you see "fun" in my post? The biggrin and my "Enjoy!" refers to those posters who justify the Orser's work with Yuzu who can't finish skating his FS normally, and not to Yuzu's fate as it is. His fate could be different if he were on other hands. But he is not. Since you like it, then yeah, it's fun to see that. :popcorn:

Considering what a classy person he is, Daisuke would be so proud if he knew he had fans like you.

People, don't feed the trolls. You're just playing their own game.
 
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