2012 NHK Ladies Free Skate | Page 14 | Golden Skate

2012 NHK Ladies Free Skate

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
The competitions where Akiko doesn't give it away in the short she tends to win/be at the top of - NHK last season, WTT this year. I really really hope she takes her ability to comeback to heart but puts herself in a position where she doesn't have to comeback. It's interesting - she and Wagner are the top two ladies this season and both have had issues with the short program. Wagner seems to have overcome hers. Fingers crossed for Akiko.
 

flaneur

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I always considered Nagasu a bit of a head case. But she really impressed me with her fs, even with 3 UR. The US ladies have quite a crop of contenders this year
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
You are stating these as though they are forgone conclusions but the 6.0 system has had very wild range of ordinals quite often. I am not convinced a Mirai who has never won any major international competition and last minute replacement at the competition will score that well against a two time World Champion and OSM. The UR in 3 Loops would have effectively reduced the count of her Triples to 4, which is merely 1 more than Mao. I honestly don't think that's going to be enough to overcome Mao's 2nd set of marks, considering her reputation. So you shouldn't assume that Mirai would necessarily finish ahead of Mao in the LP. More likely than not, she won't.

Well, this is what I think. Yes there were competitions scored under 6.0 where the "wrong" skater won, just like now.

The difference is, back in the day if I disagreed with the judges I could yell at my TV screen, "Boo, what's wrong with you judges? Are you blind?"

Now, all I can do is stare blankly at the protocols. To me, the current judging system takes the soul out of figure skating and replaces it with rows of numbers.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
now you are only looking at the jumps, you have to include all the other elements in your calculation, and when that is done you will see that akiko still won the fs by a large margin, but it was Mao's almost ten points lead from the sp that closed the gap!

These gp events have shown that Mao is really close to losing all of her jumps and I hope the gpf or 4cc or worlds shows a Mao that can jump and not have people not caring when she wins with 2 types of triples or 3 triples. It is a horrendous display of jumps she is putting on. She is now one of the worst jumpers in all of figure skating. She is so terrine on jumps she is really embarrassing herself. This skater can barely do triples! Worst thing about is that she no longer cares about jumps and is doing nothing to improve. Judges are giving her huge positive for for doubles and don't even care about single salchows and try to give her more goe on spins and steps to mAke up for it. This is a skater I was a fan of but now she isn't doing any jump well and is winning atrociously with awful skates.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
These gp events have shown that Mao is really close to losing all of her jumps and I hope the gpf or 4cc or worlds shows a Mao that can jump and not have people not caring when she wins with 2 types of triples or 3 triples. It is a horrendous display of jumps she is putting on. She is now one of the worst jumpers in all of figure skating. She is so terrine on jumps she is really embarrassing herself. This skater can barely do triples! Worst thing about is that she no longer cares about jumps and is doing nothing to improve. Judges are giving her huge positive for for doubles and don't even care about single salchows and try to give her more goe on spins and steps to mAke up for it. This is a skater I was a fan of but now she isn't doing any jump well and is winning atrociously with awful skates.

I doubt it is that Mao doesn't care its just the jumps aren't what they use to be. Asada was always a bit overrated in the jump department due to triple axel which was never the most consistent thing ever. Add in the new rules with harsher penalties and that made it worse... In reality Kim was always overall the better jumper she just didn't have an eye catching trick like the 3axel.

I'm sure Mao is doing her best and practicing it. Many said she didn't look happy with that "win" It is what it is.
 

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
No, it's not all subjective, but you could legitimately disagree. She is very capable of dazzling footwork but she doesn't do enough in-between or preceding her jumps. Merely doing them during the required step sequence is insufficient. So no, it's not a weak area, rather, it's only an issue because she failed to utilize them.

No, it's not "all" subjective, but there's no doubt some of it is. Any skater in history who's been described as "dazzling" or "breathtaking" has left some other people shrugging and saying, "Meh. What's the big deal?" Some people are captivated, some don't feel the same connection. So while skaters vary a lot in their ability to interpret music, viewers also vary in how they respond to it. I think if we want to keep valuing the artistic part of the sport, that's unavoidable to some extent.

But when most viewers agree that one skater's performance and interpretation was clearly superior, and that skater isn't rewarded for it, there's something wrong. I completely disagree that Akiko was lacking in her interpretation. I thought she used the music beautifully throughout, hit a lot of nuances in it, and made me like a piece of music I would have felt no connection to otherwise. That should be worth more than it is under the current scoring system, IMO. I don't believe there was any grand conspiracy to put Mao first (just like I don't believe there was any conspiracy to put Katelyn Osmond first at Skate Canada). The scoring may well be fair under the current system. But in that case, I don't like the way the second mark is judged under the current system. Part of figure skating's appeal is in beautifully interpreted performances, those that have an indescribable quality that just makes you go, wow. If that isn't rewarded much in the second mark, I think something is lost.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I think Rachmaninoff has hit the nail on the head for many people.

If the scoring was correct, the rules need to be changed

If the scoring was incorrect, the judges need to be changed.
 

Fruit Loops

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 6, 2004
Finally watched the program on CBC and am wondering about all the hand-wringing and outcry. I agree that Mao should not have won but I can see why the judges like her and justify to themselves to work it out that she would win overall. I love Akiko -- her style and spunk are truly endearing. Her program is also unique and very interesting but I find she is rough around the edges and I don't like her jump entrances. Mao is more of a pretty-pretty skater and seems to fit more with what the judges are traditionally looking for. I don't know. There is a sense of refinement there and her moves feel more complete. As Kurt mentioned in the commentary that the judges are more concerned with the program content in the LP than the technical. This may have just been cover to preserve the sport but evidence seems to suggest that that's what the judges are looking for.

Saying that, I do think the system is broken and some re-emphasis needs to be put back onto the jumps. I hate to see the top ladies dropping the lutz and flip. Programs without them seem so lame no matter how many 3T-3Ts or 2A-3Ts you do.

If the current system remains as it is, the sport really is in need of a skater who can do both the technical content and have the skating skills the judges like to reward. I don't think all the results are due to back-room politicking but the judges do have prejudices and favourites. I don't know. I feel like the Men and Ice Dance have started to embrace COP and I am really enjoying those divisions. Pairs and Ladies still seem to be finding their way.
 

MK's Winter

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Finally watched the program on CBC and am wondering about all the hand-wringing and outcry. I agree that Mao should not have won but I can see why the judges like her and justify to themselves to work it out that she would win overall. I love Akiko -- her style and spunk are truly endearing. Her program is also unique and very interesting but I find she is rough around the edges and I don't like her jump entrances. Mao is more of a pretty-pretty skater and seems to fit more with what the judges are traditionally looking for. I don't know. There is a sense of refinement there and her moves feel more complete. As Kurt mentioned in the commentary that the judges are more concerned with the program content in the LP than the technical. This may have just been cover to preserve the sport but evidence seems to suggest that that's what the judges are looking for.

Saying that, I do think the system is broken and some re-emphasis needs to be put back onto the jumps. I hate to see the top ladies dropping the lutz and flip. Programs without them seem so lame no matter how many 3T-3Ts or 2A-3Ts you do.

If the current system remains as it is, the sport really is in need of a skater who can do both the technical content and have the skating skills the judges like to reward. I don't think all the results are due to back-room politicking but the judges do have prejudices and favourites. I don't know. I feel like the Men and Ice Dance have started to embrace COP and I am really enjoying those divisions. Pairs and Ladies still seem to be finding their way.

Wonderfully said!
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
I... am going to say nothing about the Asada/Suzuki ness. I agree with most of the posters here and have nothing to add.

However, I am gonna let out a fangirl SQUEEEEE for Mirai! She looks so fierce now, it is amazing to see that. She still doesn't quite bring the JOY to her skating that she once did but I'm going to be optimistic that will come. I'm so happy for her and she is such a great sport too- I can't really remember the last time someone was that legitimately happy to get third. Of course I hope eventually she will be first, but one step at a time. She made my day.
 

naan

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Asada vs Suzuki NHK Trophy Free Skates: My Verdict from Tony Wheeler blog ;)

As you can see, I had Suzuki easily winning the free skate-- by 16.77 points (compared to the 9.30 points she actually won it by).

A few things-- I think both skaters were overscored in certain areas-- specifically some of the spins. The judges seemed to be +2 and +3 happy today, but I think most of their spins were 'good' at best. Suzuki's FCSp4 really should have had negative GOE, for example, but was still able to pull some +1. Don't think so.

With that in mind, I had Suzuki 1.89 points lower technically, while I had Asada 3.33 points lower.

Program components, to me, were where the total joke happened. Asada's program, for the first three or so minutes, has no life at all and she really could be skating to any music. Much like the jumps in this performance, it's just so on-and-off until the footwork starts to gain energy. Also, her fifth jump element comes two seconds before the half-way point. That's poor program planning in my opinion. She has nice basics and beautiful edges, but she really crawls through everything and doesn't do too much in terms of transitions. I've always felt that way about her, honestly.

Suzuki has a nice program and was much more engaged. She has some nice transitional highlights and a great tension and build with the music. I do think she's not as strong as Asada skating skill-wise, but everything else should have been higher in my opinion. Asada pulled off scores mostly in the 8's for performance/execution (huh?), choreography, and interpretation. I just don't feel like she was into this program at all.

For what it's worth, Asada lost 14.85 points off her base mark just from the three jumps she doubled and one she singled in this program. 117 with three triples.

Suzuki easily wins this battle in my opinion.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I was really happy for Mirai. I hadn't seen her skate that well in awhile. Her body has obviously changed a lot, but she still landed everything! Good job, Mirai!
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
I doubt it is that Mao doesn't care its just the jumps aren't what they use to be. Asada was always a bit overrated in the jump department due to triple axel which was never the most consistent thing ever. Add in the new rules with harsher penalties and that made it worse... In reality Kim was always overall the better jumper she just didn't have an eye catching trick like the 3axel.

I'm sure Mao is doing her best and practicing it. Many said she didn't look happy with that "win" It is what it is.

And Kim is coming back this year. I'm wondering what shape she's going to be in December in Germany & if she'll bring all her big jumps with her, like her 3F/3T, 3Lz/3T, etc. If so, it's going to be a game changer b/c everyone else better step up or else.

I do not want to see senior ladies do 3Lo, 3S & 3T and pat themselves on the back because they did so well (w/o any 3F and 3Lz or 3/3).

BTW - I don't know what's up w/ Mao, but NHK showed her pre-comp interview, and she looked AWFUL -- really bad complexion (sallow and really bad brownish yellowish tone), puffy eyes, etc. She did not look like a young woman in her early 20s who should be in good health. I almost didn't recognize her at first.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I doubt it is that Mao doesn't care its just the jumps aren't what they use to be. Asada was always a bit overrated in the jump department due to triple axel which was never the most consistent thing ever. Add in the new rules with harsher penalties and that made it worse... In reality Kim was always overall the better jumper she just didn't have an eye catching trick like the 3axel.

I'm sure Mao is doing her best and practicing it. Many said she didn't look happy with that "win" It is what it is.

If she is practicing and this is the result that does indicate the jumps will improve at all. What if she just ends up like a Lepisto. Someones who just doubles things and still wins medals and an event sometimes. The jumps are so bad now but it's not like the environment even is that tough in jumps. Ando no 3/3 or 2a/3t when she did worlds and Kostner no lutz and one triple flip. Maybe she is just savvy and not pushing the jumping! It looks worse coming from her because of the the 3A and 3/3 past. But why can't she just be satisfied by how she is winning and the whole environment of skating.

Finally watched the program on CBC and am wondering about all the hand-wringing and outcry. I agree that Mao should not have won but I can see why the judges like her and justify to themselves to work it out that she would win overall. I love Akiko -- her style and spunk are truly endearing. Her program is also unique and very interesting but I find she is rough around the edges and I don't like her jump entrances. Mao is more of a pretty-pretty skater and seems to fit more with what the judges are traditionally looking for. I don't know. There is a sense of refinement there and her moves feel more complete. As Kurt mentioned in the commentary that the judges are more concerned with the program content in the LP than the technical. This may have just been cover to preserve the sport but evidence seems to suggest that that's what the judges are looking for.

Saying that, I do think the system is broken and some re-emphasis needs to be put back onto the jumps. I hate to see the top ladies dropping the lutz and flip. Programs without them seem so lame no matter how many 3T-3Ts or 2A-3Ts you do.

If the current system remains as it is, the sport really is in need of a skater who can do both the technical content and have the skating skills the judges like to reward. I don't think all the results are due to back-room politicking but the judges do have prejudices and favourites. I don't know. I feel like the Men and Ice Dance have started to embrace COP and I am really enjoying those divisions. Pairs and Ladies still seem to be finding their way.

Even if the program is good I can't believe commentators would say "doubles? who cares?" Like jumps should be irrelevent. It's not his job to defend the system if all the ladies go back to doubles just because their program might be good. Ando, Kostner, then Mao with 2 or 3 triples. I can totally see it happening. Even if it wins it is atrocious and awful and should not automatically be defended. Maybe if some of the other skaters who are losing to this nonsense speak up things would get better. Jumps are regressing to the point to when skaters had to spend lots of time on figures!
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
And Kim is coming back this year. I'm wondering what shape she's going to be in December in Germany & if she'll bring all her big jumps with her, like her 3F/3T, 3Lz/3T, etc. If so, it's going to be a game changer b/c everyone else better step up or else.

I do not want to see senior ladies do 3Lo, 3S & 3T and pat themselves on the back because they did so well (w/o any 3F and 3Lz or 3/3).

BTW - I don't know what's up w/ Mao, but NHK showed her pre-comp interview, and she looked AWFUL -- really bad complexion (sallow and really bad brownish yellowish tone), puffy eyes, etc. She did not look like a young woman in her early 20s who should be in good health. I almost didn't recognize her at first.

If this is supposed to be a dig at Mao, I do think it's totally uncalled for. Does it really look like she's happy because she did so well?
 

Fruit Loops

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 6, 2004
If she is practicing and this is the result that does indicate the jumps will improve at all. What if she just ends up like a Lepisto. Someones who just doubles things and still wins medals and an event sometimes. The jumps are so bad now but it's not like the environment even is that tough in jumps. Ando no 3/3 or 2a/3t when she did worlds and Kostner no lutz and one triple flip. Maybe she is just savvy and not pushing the jumping! It looks worse coming from her because of the the 3A and 3/3 past. But why can't she just be satisfied by how she is winning and the whole environment of skating.



Even if the program is good I can't believe commentators would say "doubles? who cares?" Like jumps should be irrelevent. It's not his job to defend the system if all the ladies go back to doubles just because their program might be good. Ando, Kostner, then Mao with 2 or 3 triples. I can totally see it happening. Even if it wins it is atrocious and awful and should not automatically be defended. Maybe if some of the other skaters who are losing to this nonsense speak up things would get better. Jumps are regressing to the point to when skaters had to spend lots of time on figures!

The commentators didn't say "doubles, who cares?" They were just trying to explain what the judges are looking for.

I'm not saying it's right. Just that is how it is and, by the systems' own rules, technically not "cheating". I did go on to say that I think that system in broken. I don't want skaters with 2 or 3 triples to win either. I do think Mao's level of skating and her reputation could have kept her in the bronze position without much complaint from me. But on the other hand, watching it on the TV I can see why the judges love her and go out of the way to prop her up. My personal preference is for Akiko but don't blame the judges for preferring Mao.

I just want jumps to count more.
 
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miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
If this is supposed to be a dig at Mao, I do think it's totally uncalled for. Does it really look like she's happy because she did so well?

ITA. Some of these comments get much too personal. A judging controversy should address the judges and the system, since that is how the results are determined. It's easy to target certain skaters but that really doesn't solve anything.
 
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