2012 NHK Ladies Free Skate | Page 15 | Golden Skate

2012 NHK Ladies Free Skate

Rachmaninoff

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
I'm not saying it's right. Just that is how it is and, by the systems' own rules, technically not "cheating". I did go on to say that I think that system in broken. I don't want skaters with 2 or 3 triples to win either. I do think Mao's level of skating and her reputation could have kept her in the bronze position without much complaint from me. But on the other hand, watching it on the TV I can see why the judges love her and go out of the way to prop her up. My personal preference is for Akiko but don't blame the judges for preferring Mao.

So you think the judges "go out of their way to prop up" Mao because of her reputation and style, and you said in your earlier post that the judges seem to have prejudices and favorites, but you "don't blame" them for this and don't understand why people are complaining? People are complaining because the judges are not supposed to go out of their way to prop up a skater because they "love her." The judges' job is to judge how well the skaters perform and rank them accordingly. I don't blame the judges for having preferences; it's when they "go out of their way to prop up" the skaters they prefer that there's a problem.

Not saying that's what's happening (I'm more on the side of "this system can suck sometimes and doesn't always capture the essence of a superior program"), but if you think it is, then you should have a problem with that. If you care about the integrity of the sport, it makes no sense to be sitting there saying, "Yes, yes, the judges are probably going out of their way to prop up this skater because she has a great reputation and she's pretty to watch, and that's just hunky-dory! I don't understand why anyone would complain about that!"
 
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aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
And Kim is coming back this year. I'm wondering what shape she's going to be in December in Germany & if she'll bring all her big jumps with her, like her 3F/3T, 3Lz/3T, etc. If so, it's going to be a game changer b/c everyone else better step up or else.

I do not want to see senior ladies do 3Lo, 3S & 3T and pat themselves on the back because they did so well (w/o any 3F and 3Lz or 3/3).

Personally, I'd like to be able to see Yuna do a 3Lo with the rest of her awe-inspiring jumps. Just sayin'.
 
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quikrush

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Personally, I'd like to be able to see Yuna do a 3Lo with the rest of her awe-inspiring jumps. Just sayin'.

Not I. Kim had a pelvic injury in her teens that causes her some trouble with the loop, I believe. Right now I'll be more than happy just to see her in a good shape & still doing those enormous 3-3 combinations.
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I finally got see both programs and I can't believe that Mao won with that program. Forget the jumps, even her usual performance/packaging was not up to snuff. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I kept thinking "Please give me Ashley Wagner's Black Swan!" several times during that program. The fact that she got nearly the same PCS as Wagner at TEB is actually quite mindblowing.

Yes Akiko was 9.35 points behind, but they marked her down in PCS when that error did not mar her overall program and flow as much as Mao's mistakes did in the FS.

Consider this: Mao got 32.25 in PCS in the SP for a very lovely program. If you factor that by 2 (the factor in the FS), that's 64.50. For the FS she got 64.55. She actually scored BETTER in the FS in PCS than she had for a much better performed SP. How does that make any sense?

Meanwhile, Akiko's PCS score in the SP was 30.34. With the FS factor that's 60.68. She scored 62.11 in the FS. So basically, the judges docked her by 1.43 points in PCS despite, IMO, that she seem to maintain the same level of components in both programs.

So it's not even a matter that Akiko's PCS should have been higher than Mao's (if both skate clean and well, I agree Mao edges Akiko on skating skills and transitions), but that the judges being much more harsh on Akiko's score when she makes even a single mistake. Mao did not get that same harsh treatment in the FS when clearly she did not perform that program as well as she usually does.

I actually feel bad for Mao because she is a very driven and competitive person and clearly she was embarrassed that she won with that performance. I agree it's uncalled for to pick on Mao directly for scoring she had no control over. In fact, Mao is a woman of great integrity. Consider the fact she reworked her jump technique because she wanted to have all the triple jumps with the correct edge/technique, even if that meant not winning in the short-term. I have ultimate respect for Mao and this judging does not change that for me. I wouldn't be surprised if Mao is very unhappy right now that she won this way.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
When Mao's LP performance is analyzed into parts, she 'might' deserve the score for each part. But when they are put together as a whole, there is something missing--not balanced, with a dire deficit in jumps. It's like a chef who has all the expensive ingredients (skating skills and all that) but forgets to add salt (jumps) to her cooking. The end product is not tasty. Its value is less than the sum of each part. On the other hand, when Akiko's performance is analyzed into parts, each part is not particularly outstanding. But when they are put together, it is pleasant to the eyes. What CoP fails to do is to account for the wholeness of a performance, the artistic value associated with the viewer's cognitive appreciation for a wholesome program.
 
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FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
When Mao's LP performance is analyzed into parts, she 'might' deserve the score for each part. But when they are put together as a whole, there is something missing--not balanced, with a dire deficit in jumps. It's like a chef who has all the expensive ingredients (skating skills and all that) but forgets to add salt (jumps) to her cooking. The end product is not tasty. Its value is less than the sum of each part. On the other hand, when Akiko's performance is analyzed into parts, each part is not particularly outstanding. But when they are put together, it is pleasant to the eyes. What CoP fails to do is to account for the wholeness of a performance, the artistic value associated with the viewer's cognitive appreciation for a wholesome program.
And that's what the PE/EX mark should be about but, somehow, Mao's mark was higher than Suzuki's! :scratch: I would have given Akiko something between 8 and 8.5 and Mao 7.5, surely not more than 7.75! Asada's performance looked really something disastrous (even if she did landed three clean triples), just the look on her face was worryied and sad...
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Asada's performance looked really something disastrous
The key word is "look". It looked disastrous but in fact not. When you analyzed it in parts, it was actually not that bad. But as a whole, yeah, it was disastrous. A strange concept, isn't it?
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
The key word is "look". It looked disastrous but in fact not. When you analyzed it in parts, it was actually not that bad. But as a whole, yeah, it was disastrous. A strange concept, isn't it?

That is what I really dislike about CoP sometimes. Some people try to justify scores by saying something like, "oh, skater X fell three times, but all those falls only added up to about 5 seconds and the other 2 minutes and 45 seconds were great and that's why it's OK that the PE marks were high for a 3-fall performance!"

I guess it makes sense on some logical level, but intuitively it feels so wrong.
 

Nadia01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
If this is supposed to be a dig at Mao, I do think it's totally uncalled for. Does it really look like she's happy because she did so well?

No I'm not picking on Mao. I'm criticizing all the women out there.

Without consistent 3F & 3Lz that actually utilize the correct technique (no cheated takeoff), you have a bunch of ladies who consistently deliver 3Lo, 3S & 3T in their programs since no current lady can do 3A (Mao no longer bothers w/ 3A either).

What is the point of calling someone "senior competitor" when she delivers junior programs?

It's frustrating to look at watered down programs. I do not watch novice and junior ladies for a reason -- their programs do not move me or excite me, and if senior ladies keep doing junior programs, I no longer have any reasons to watch them either.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I thought I'd be happy to see Mao win an international competition and ecstatic if she won two. But all I feel is distressed. I'm willing to bet that she doesn't feel really thrilled either.

Leaving out all the judging strangeness, what on earth is going on with her skating? You don't just lose all your triple jumps like that. She's not exceedingly old for a skater (ironically, Akiko is quite a bit older), she hasn't put on weight or gone into some kind of delayed puberty. She is training with perhaps the best coach in Japan. What is going on?
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
This reminds me of when Chan won a GP with three falls (I think it was one in the short and two in the long). I'm a Chan-uber, but was like: how the heck to he get that score???
Finally. The words of wisdom from a Chan uber. I wonder why your boy is not treated the same way on 20 pages like Mao is treated here :biggrin:. I have only one explanation- the board is mostly NA dominated. Kind of lame excuse, isn't it? You people keep forgetting one simple thing- if inflation starts in one place, it's sooner or later will shows up in another. And it's fair! Otherwise you are hypocrites. I am still waiting when Russians start harnessing their horses. :biggrin:
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Finally. The words of wisdom from a Chan uber. I wonder why your boy is not treated the same way on 20 pages like Mao is treated here :biggrin:. I have only one explanation- the board is mostly NA dominated. Kind of lame excuse, isn't it? You people keep forgetting one simple thing- if inflation starts in one place, it's sooner or later will shows up in another. And it's fair! Otherwise you are hypocrites. I am still waiting when Russians start harnessing their horses. :biggrin:

yeah the difference here is that Mao Asada never fell, just doubled some jumps, and she had a huge lead from the sp, and a skater winning due to a big lead in the sp, is pretty common, nothing new and happens all the time :rolleye:

if i was Akiko or her fans i would be really happy for her score in the fs, that's the highest i have seen her score in the fs!
 

Kunstrijdster

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
yeah the difference here is that Mao Asada never fell, just doubled some jumps[...]

Which, as we have been thought by the powers that be, is even worse than falling...

[...] and a skater winning due to a big lead in the sp, is pretty common, nothing new and happens all the time :rolleye:
if i was Akiko or her fans i would be really happy for her score in the fs, that's the highest i have seen her score in the fs!

Yeah, judges marks all over the place and skaters robbed of their victories... Nothing new, so it must be ok, I guess. Scores do not mean anything on their own, even high scores are not worth a thing if they don't translate into the correct placements.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Which, as we have been thought by the powers that be, is even worse than falling...



Yeah, judges marks all over the place and skaters robbed of their victories... Nothing new, so it must be ok, I guess. Scores do not mean anything on their own, even high scores are not worth a thing if they don't translate into the correct placements.


you see, this is your personal opinion, i have never stated anything like that. what i said was very plain and simple: winning due to a big lead after the short program is very common, Mao herself has lost many gold medals due to the sp and so have many other skaters. how you where able to misinterpret such a simple sentence is really a mystery to me :laugh:
 

Kunstrijdster

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
you see, this is your personal opinion, i have never stated anything like that. what i said was very plain and simple: winning due to a big lead after the short program is very common, Mao herself has lost many gold medals due to the sp and so have many other skaters. how you where able to misinterpret such a simple sentence is really a mystery to me :laugh:

:laugh: Yeah, funnily enough, what happened here was not a win due to a big SP lead only, but due to some very mediocre judging of the LP too: how you can think Mao deserved higher P/E than Akiko is really a mystery to me :laugh:
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
:laugh: Yeah, funnily enough, what happened here was not a win due to a big SP lead only, but due to some very mediocre judging of the LP too: how you can think Mao deserved higher P/E than Akiko is really a mystery to me :laugh:

If you actually compare how Mao and Akiko related their skating to the music, Mao's was much better. This is clear, e.g., when you compare the spins. Akiko spins through the music but Mao spins with the music, changing her positions with changes to the tempo of the music. Even the timing of the jumps, Mao's tends to jump with a rise in the music but Akiko's jumps aren't choreographed with the music. Also in terms of the step sequence, Mao's steps capture every nuance of the music change but Akiko's doesn't. This is why I think Mao's P/E is higher than Akiko's. This is a choreographic problem and can be addressed, because Akiko is no doubt able to skate with the music more precisely.

Akiko did score much more than Mao did in the long program.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
When Mao's LP performance is analyzed into parts, she 'might' deserve the score for each part. But when they are put together as a whole, there is something missing--not balanced, with a dire deficit in jumps. It's like a chef who has all the expensive ingredients (skating skills and all that) but forgets to add salt (jumps) to her cooking. The end product is not tasty. Its value is less than the sum of each part. On the other hand, when Akiko's performance is analyzed into parts, each part is not particularly outstanding. But when they are put together, it is pleasant to the eyes. What CoP fails to do is to account for the wholeness of a performance, the artistic value associated with the viewer's cognitive appreciation for a wholesome program.

I would go one step farther. The tacit assumption in these discussions seems to be that the CoP is right and everyone else is wrong. When the audience boos at the men's podium at worlds and sits in stunned silence at the woman's podium at NHK (Japanese being more polite and less demonstrative than those rowdy Frenchmen :) ), the response of the establishment apologists is "read more protocol."

Isn't it possible that the CoP is wrong and "everybody" is right?
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I like COP, but in order to align COP to audience perception, jumps could be marked differently. More points on successful jumps, less penalization of under-rotation, more penalization of falls. That would probably do it. How would skating purists regard that??
 
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