Was Suzuki twice a victim of underscoring and pageantry in PCS? | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Was Suzuki twice a victim of underscoring and pageantry in PCS?

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
She should get credit for the steps, but she should not get double credit, once in the GOE for the element and again in the transitions component, for the same steps. That's where I think the scoring system is wrong -- they give a reward twice for the same thing. It seems like one or the other but not both would be more fair.
At the least, if you are going to reward difficult jump entries in the transitions component score anyway, and if you miss the jump, then I do not see the merit in giving a double reward for making the entry to an element so hard that you can't do it at all.
...
My complaint is that a lot of what counts as incorporating steps and turns as part of the jump entry is often in fact little more than a couple of twitches. Maybe I don't have a good enough eye. To me this seems especially true in the required solo triple in the short program. I also have a problem with the "immediately" part. A lot of these jumps have turns and steps -- and then a long straight entry edge. I think this should be counted as transitions in program components, but not also as GOE bullets if they are too far in advance of the actual takeoff.

Speaking for myself, as general principles...

I think that the “Transitions” score covers everything in the program that is not itself an element. The “difficulty” criterion would include not only the difficulty of the steps or other moves themselves but also how they add to the difficulty of the element they lead into (or out of) -- which would be “not much” if there’s a long enough pause for the skater to readjust balance and timing before initiating the element. The “intricacy” criterion would include how closely steps etc. are linked to the elements and how closely elements are linked to each other. So mere quantity doesn’t guarantee a high Transitions score if there are gaps between the transitional moves and the elements.

Then there are also the variety and quality criteria. Of course, it’s easier to have variety when there is more quantity, but it’s no guarantee.

If the quality of the element suffers, the quality of the transition may also suffer -- which would often be more true on an transition exiting a move than entering one.

Also, some transition moves (whether directly connected to elements or not) enhance the Choreography of the program and should also be rewarded in that component. Others are just thrown in to add difficulty so they wouldn’t help the Choreography component; some might even detract from the unity, seamlessness, coherence, phrasing, etc., of the program, in which case they could have a negative effect on that component.

As for the GOE, difficult entry (or exit) is just one bullet point toward positive GOE. Two bullet points are required for each plus. So a difficult entry on its own doesn’t guarantee a plus, and an error that requires negative GOE would often cancel out the benefits of the difficult entry.

Doubling an intended triple jump in a freeskate and landing it successfully is not “missing” the element. If it’s a successful double, it would be judged as such, and the GOE would be whatever it deserves as a successful double based on the quality of the jump -- with difficult entry or exit if applicable -- and the base value and the value of the positive GOE if any will be significantly lower than for a triple.

In a short program if a jump is required to be triple then doubling or singling it requires -3 GOE, so there’s no GOE benefit to be had from a difficult entry.

For the solo jump in the short program, if there’s a notable pause between the preceding moves and the jump, the judges are supposed to reduce the GOE from what would be for that jump on its own, as executed, in a different (e.g., long program) context. Skaters put steps before the SP solo jump because they’re required and have been since the 1970s because steps before a jump is a skill the ISU has long wanted to reward. If they don’t do it on that one element where it’s required, they lose points. On other elements, they open the opportunity to gain points.

A failed jump will always lose points. In some cases good qualities about the jump, including a difficult entry, may mitigate the amount of points lost.

So sometimes transition moves before a jump will add to both the Transitions component and possibly other components and to the GOE for the jump. Other times they will help the PCS but will be able to do nothing for a failed jump that had too much else wrong with it. Still other times it will add to the GOE but contribute little to the PCS. And occasionally (the same simple transitions repeated too often in the program with weak quality and/or resulting in a failed element) they will contribute nothing positive at all. That’s why I think it makes sense to allow transitions that contribute positively to the performance in more than one way to be rewarded in more than one way.

And the same for elements, which can be rewarded in GOE for several different kinds of positive qualities, up to +3, and can also be rewarded in PCS if they contribute to various criteria of the various components.

Now, if you want to choose a specific jump from a specific performance, with transitions, we could analyze what’s good and bad about it as a jump and also how it fits into the program as a whole.
 
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mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Not really. Mao does spirals, spread eagles, ina bauers apart from those mohawks and three-turns. And again, just go to the ice rink and try to land a flip like Akiko and like Mao. You'll see the outcome. Even though Mao does "only" mohawks and three-turns beofre her flip it's still more difficult than Akiko's long straight entrences.

I am nowhere near the elite level, but I have SIMILAR choreography and transitions to Mao in a program full of singles and a couple doubles. I don't find her transitions mind blowing or particularly difficult.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
gkelly said:
Now, if you want to choose a specific jump from a specific performance, with transitions, we could analyze what’s good and bad about it as a jump and also how it fits into the program as a whole.

:rock: Here is one of the finest programs ever skated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRqY2Q2WUl8

1. 1:52. A non-rotational jump into a forward spiral into a triple jump. :love:

2. 2:44. Hydroplane into a triple Axel. :love:

3. 3:48. Forward spiral into a triple Lutz (fall). :love:

They should have waved the fall penalty. The fall was like the little mole on Marilyn Monroe's cheek. The imperfection without which the perfection would not be perfect. :)

If y'all judges don't send this man to the Olympics I am personally going to come down there and beat you about the head and shoulders.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
:rock: Here is one of the finest programs ever skated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRqY2Q2WUl8

I wish he had competed in a different year. Compared him with the US National Champion Ryan Bradley, Matt Savoie was definitely a superior skater!:thumbsup: But he was just unlucky. Though I can't say it was one of the finest programs ever. Matt was so slow and didn't have much ice coverage. To confess, what I remembered about this Matt Savoie was his ugly costume color, overwhelmingly took my memory from his skating.:p
 
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mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I am nowhere near the elite level, but I have SIMILAR choreography and transitions to Mao in a program full of singles and a couple doubles. I don't find her transitions mind blowing or particularly difficult.

lol i would love to see your SIMILAR choreography, by the way did i ever mention i have similar choreography too daisuke too :laugh:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I wish he had competed in a different year. Compared him with the US National Champion Ryan Bradley, Matt Savoie was definitely a superior skater! :thumbsup:

This performance lost to Lysacek by less than a point. Savoie beat Lysacek in TES and Transitions and tied in Skating Skills. But Evan pulled out the win by getting higher scores in CH, INT and P&E. :rofl: Matt clobbered Weir by more than 8 points in TES and was a bit ahead in PCS as well.

True, his program was slow. Like a steak nursed to perfection over a low fire, rather than tossed into the barbecue pit to be fished out two seconds later burnt on the outside and raw on the inside. :)
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
A couple of spirals and spread eagles don't automatically make a program full of transitions. Suzuki also had a great spiral on a very deep outside edge by the way. You are trying to make it sound like Asada's program was so much more difficult than Suzuki's when it's simply not. Do you know that a 3 turn into a flip is a very standard flip entry that they teach you at the can-skate level? Can you please stop preaching to everybody that Asada's FS is oh so much more difficult because 2 of her jumps had the mohwak entry? Sure, having a mohawk is more difficult than having no mohwak in the absolutely sense, and it makes a difference when you are just learning to skate. But for THEIR level, it's such a relatively rudimentary step that wouldn't make the judges go "Wow, that's such an amazing transition, I better give her an 8.5 for TR and +2 GOE for that jump!"

Suzuki's spiral was not a transition, it was a part of a techical element called Choreographed Sequence. Besides, there was absolutely nothing leading into her jumps and immediately after her jumps. Asada at least had SOME transitions therefore her program is indeed more difficult.

Once again, look at the etrance to Asada's loop combination and flip. These are not just three turns and mohawks. Suzuki goes just straight into the jumps not dioing anything else.
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Mrs P's conclusions after 12 pages of this thread (and several pages of several others):


** Akiko needs to stop making her usual error in the short program so she doesn't have to work as hard to get a competition in the win column
** Mao needs to rotate her triples so she can win more definitively and without question
** Mao and Akiko both flutz
** Not everyone agrees on how PCS or GOE should be scored
** Not everyone agrees on what it means to have superior transitions (except that PChiddy has them! :biggrin:)
** Despite the basis of this thread, Mao and Akiko are both pretty! :love:
** Mrs. P is only losing sleep on watching Korean dramas not over the scores at NHK Trophy. :laugh:

And with that, off I go. :)
 

Riemann

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Doubling an intended triple jump in a freeskate and landing it successfully is not “missing” the element. If it’s a successful double, it would be judged as such, and the GOE would be whatever it deserves as a successful double based on the quality of the jump

No comment on the scoring here, but there have been times where some judges seem to have forgotten this.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
mary01, That was VERY rude. I actually DO skate and my program is full of similar transitions with three turns, Mohawks, a couple counters, brackets and rockers, spread eagles and Bauers in my 2:40 program. I chose music that isn't as overused as well.
 

christinaskater

Medalist
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
We should celebrate the Japanese super skaters!

I love Akiko! Hope she gains the consistency for both the short and the long!
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
What is very suprising for me, the fact that one can be so consistant with jumps at such an "advanced" age. Very seldom does it happen in figure skating that 27 years old lady is so solid and just lands those jumps one after another. I can only think of Irina Slutskaya who was that consistant with the jumps, being 27 notwithstanding. Butyrskaya skated even later in her 20's but she wasn't anywhere near Suzuki and Slutskaya's consistency.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Agreed, Bartek. Suzuki is a marvel of solidity and consistency, as well as being able to express the music and connect with the audience.
 

christinaskater

Medalist
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Agreed, Bartek. Suzuki is a marvel of solidity and consistency, as well as being able to express the music and connect with the audience.

She is a wonder of skating! She is just like wine, she keeps improving with age. She has given the skating world some glorious masterpieces through the years! Super Akiko san!
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Now that we know the results of the Japanese Nationals, I was wondering if anyone wishes to change the title to Suzuki being a triple victim of underscoring?

When Osmond beat her at SC, there was huge outcry that a junior girl should not be able to beat World medalist given that the latter didn't bomb and that the win was a result of Osmond's powerful federation hosting the event. Seems to me, those people were advocating that reputation should count more than what was happening on ice, true and real pageantry.

When Asada beat her at NHK, the reasoning was switched to because Suzuki is not as pretty as Asada. :sarcasm:

Now, Suzuki lost again, not only that, she missed the podium to a little junior girl by the name of Satoko Miyahara whom most people haven't even heard of until now. If Miyahara met the ISU age requirement, it is possible Suzuki won't even be sent to Worlds at all.

It's kind of funny with threads like this one, only the protagonist ends up being the one needing a gift in order to even to go to the World Championship because the best she can do was a 5th place finish at her Nationals LP and a Triple Toe + Double Toe combo for her SP.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Akiko's got off the podium fair and square here with a very poor FS. I don't have a problem with Satoko, who had two solid skates, getting bronze. It doesn't change my mind that Akiko's placements should have been different at her GP events. (And again, my basis is strictly on how I felt the judging should have gone for THAT event, not on politicking or whatever).

And I don't think that she benefited from Sakato being ineligible for worlds is that big of a deal. Other skaters in other countries have benefited from this as well. Nor does it change the fact that Akiko is capable of great skates. She didn't at this competition. It happens.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Oh, no! Oh, that's dreadful for Akiko, and for her fans. I don't want to say anything against the bronze medalist, but I wish it were Akiko.
 

avalyn

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I wasn't outraged by Akiko getting second at Skate Canada, but I do feel that she did enough to win NHK Trophy. Her skate at Nationals doesn't change my opinion on that.

Your summary of peoples' arguments, that Akiko lost to Mao at NHK because Mao is prettier, is a simplification. Likely, they were just stating the fact that looks do play a role in figure skating, especially ladies figure skating, including how popular certain skaters are over others.

I don't see Akiko going to Worlds as a gift. JFS couldn't send the third-place finisher even if they wanted to because of the age requirements, so they must send the fourth-place finisher. If the bronze medalist was age-eligible, I could see what you mean.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Well now if we go by Suzuki fan logic she was majorly held up in her Nationals LP for an obviously vastly inferior technical LP to many of the others, and gifted her spot on the team (even if with the aid of an age ineligible) by that. On the other hand we could just follow more logical logic and say her superior PCS to others which saved her spot on the team was the same reason she gets lower PCS in general than Kim, Asada, Ando, an improving Wagner, Kostner, and not significantly higher than good young skaters like Osmond and Sotnikova, since she just isnt the best international skater, and there are a group of women who generally speaking are just better overall skaters than she is, the same way she is just better than most of the younger Japanese at the moment, so merits higher PCS even on an off night. All that said I agree she was robbed at NHK of winning, but only by Asada`s inflated scores (especialy LP) at that event, not that her own were in any way underflated, she would have gotten around a 130 had her 7th triple been fully rotated, anyone thinking she should merit anymore scoring potential than that is reaching.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Now that we know the results of the Japanese Nationals, I was wondering if anyone wishes to change the title to Suzuki being a triple victim of underscoring?

? I haven't read any posts saying that Suzuki deserved higher placement at Japanese Nationals. Many people thought that she deserved to win NHK and/or Skate Canada. They still do.
 
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