The current 3Lz problem in Senior Ladies | Page 3 | Golden Skate

The current 3Lz problem in Senior Ladies

MiRé

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I really feel like feds are behind this....I may be wrong :rolleye:......But, I need a clear explanation why ISU didn't raise the base value of 3Lz. Also, if the reason why quads and axels' BV are raised is because they're harder jumps and ISU wants skaters to attempt these jumps, why raise loop? i say feds..........
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Also, if the reason why quads and axels' BV are raised is because they're harder jumps and ISU wants skaters to attempt these jumps, why raise loop?

I think this goes back to pre-IJS consensus about the relative difficulty of the jumps. There used to be a chart in the USFSA rulebook with diagrams of all the possible jumps as if they were school figures and difficulty factors for each one. I don't know that those factors were ever used in any official way in 6.0 judging, but they give a sense of what some experts thought the relative difficulties were before the IJS scale of values came along and made it obsolete, although there are some apparent discrepancies, and the differences between singles, doubles, and triples are not on the same scale as in IJS.

In that chart (I'm looking at the 2006-07 version, which may be the last year it was printed in the rulebook), single salchow and single toe loop were both worth a factor of 2, double sal was 4 and double toe 3, and triple sal and triple toe both 6. Loop and flip were both 3, 5, and 8 for single, double, and triple respectively; lutz was 4, 6, and 8, and axel 4, 7, and 10.

So the thinking at that time was that salchow and toe loop were pretty much equivalent in difficulty and loop and flip were pretty much equivalent, and lutz was clearly more difficult.

The original IJS scale of values arranged them with equal 0.5 increments between the base values of the triples, but I think most skaters, coaches, etc., would agree that triple salchow is much closer in difficulty to triple toe than it is to triple loop, or put differently, triple loop is much closer to triple flip than to triple sal. The latest revision to the scale of values reflects that consensus.

But now, although lutz is still the next-most-difficult triple and is further in value from flip and loop taken together, the lutz value has not been raised and the triple loop is actually a little closer in value to triple lutz than it was a few years ago. I don't know why the values of the easy and mid-level triples were changed and not the lutz. Maybe such a change was discussed and rejected, or maybe no one in a position to recommend changes felt strongly that that particular jump was being over- or undervalued compared to the others.
 

MiRé

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
In that chart (I'm looking at the 2006-07 version, which may be the last year it was printed in the rulebook), single salchow and single toe loop were both worth a factor of 2, double sal was 4 and double toe 3, and triple sal and triple toe both 6. Loop and flip were both 3, 5, and 8 for single, double, and triple respectively; lutz was 4, 6, and 8, and axel 4, 7, and 10.

I never knew this :laugh: Thing is, although I can't skate, 3Lz looks so beautiful and elegant, and I really do wish ladies do this jump often. But I feel like because of the changes in the bv, ladies try to avoid 3Lz :(

Either lower the value of other jumps (toe, loop, sal, flip) so ladies can attempt 3Lz to raise their bv scores, or raise 3Lz's bv for the same reason.

although, I don't think this will ever be done :cry:
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Remember that juniors (men as well as ladies) are not required to do triple jumps at all in their short programs. Watch the whole field at a JGP or even at Junior Worlds now that there are minimum scores required to enter, and you'll see why.

Currently the solo jump in the junior short rotates every three years among lutz, flip, and loop, and skaters have the option to do either double or triple.

If the powers that be decided that it were important for all junior skaters, or all junior ladies (different rules for junior men) to demonstrate lutzing ability every single year, they could stop rotating the solo jump and just require double/triple lutz every year, same way double axels, and laybacks for ladies, are required every year.

Or they introduce a required jump in the junior short program jump combination, same as there used to be a required double in the senior SP as well during the 1970s and 80s, and make sure that every year the lutz is required either as the solo jump or in the combination. Probably continue to give the option of double or triple, given the wide range of jumping ability that we see in junior competition worldwide.
That's interesting, it would be nice to see 12-13 years old girls landing good double lutzes with correct edges, good height and positions instead of UR flutzes with horrible positions and posture and a lot of mistakes... Yes, setting required elements (even easy ones) for the Junior Ladies could be a good way to focus on the technique and the quality so I think that, when they become Seniors, they would be able to try good 3Lzs, now most of the Junior Ladies are forced to try triples when they are not technically (nor physically) ready, so a lot of them lose their jumps, and it's sad...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It seems like the ISU thinks adding one more revolution approximately triples the difficulty of the jump. (By this rule quads should be worth a little more.)

I think skaters who don't have a satisfactory triple Lutz should consider a double. 2Lz with +2 GOE = 2.7; 2Lz<(e) = 2.8.

2Lz+2Lo+2T = 5.2

2Lz+3T = 6.2
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
I believe that the first triple lutz done in competition by a lady was pretty recent in the scheme of things: Denise Biellmann in about 1981. It's the toughest ladies' jump unless you're one of about six people in the entire history of skating (Asada, Ito, Harding, Nakano, our Kimmie Meissner, and a Russian skater whose name eludes me) who have done a triple axel. So the 3Lz probably does deserve some special point value.

At the age of 15, Biellmann was the first female skater to land the triple lutz in competition, which she performed for the first time at the 1978 European Championships.
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
I would like to see a new rule added where a skater who performs clean edge, fully rotated triples (or quads) of each type earns a set bonus point value to the technical score. In the case of the axel, men need to perform a triple axel and ladies can perform either the double or triple. For men's, I think it should be 4 additional points and 3 for ladies.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
I would like to see a new rule added where a skater who performs clean edge, fully rotated triples (or quads) of each type earns a set bonus point value to the technical score. In the case of the axel, men need to perform a triple axel and ladies can perform either the double or triple. For men's, I think it should be 4 additional points and 3 for ladies.
This is the bonus rule and it's used in many nationals competitions for Junior/Novice skaters.
 

draqq

FigureSkatingPhenom
Record Breaker
Joined
May 10, 2010
This is the bonus rule and it's used in many nationals competitions for Junior/Novice skaters.

Cool, I didn't know that. I think it makes sense to reward skaters who have the technique required to do all the jumps properly and not let skater omit one or even two jump types that they're not comfortable doing.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
This is the bonus rule and it's used in many nationals competitions for Junior/Novice skaters.

Do you know which countries use this rule?

I had heard of Russia giving bonuses for seniors doing the hardest jumps...
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Do you know which countries use this rule?

I had heard of Russia giving bonuses for seniors doing the hardest jumps...
Yes, in Russia it's used in junior and novice (I think) AlexRus posted once an explanation of the bonus points that are given for the ladies who land 3-3, 3Lz and 3F in the same program or 3A, you can find it in the Russian Cup thread I think... In Italy Novice and Junior girls who land any 2A or triple receive 1 point-bonus for each of them, and the same in Canada, regardless of the GOE, just if they attempt a triple with clean rotation. I don't know about other countries...
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
USFS does not give bonuses. In the US, Junior and Novice ladies who make it to Nationals typically go for the high-value jumps and some have 3-3s.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
OT: The men, during the GP series, had their share of edge calls. In the first two events of the series, the men received 14 edge calls. I believe the women had around 17. Sorry: was too lazy to go though all of the events. I guess if I were a skater I might see this differently, but I find myself perplexed that skaters have so much trouble using the correct edge. Perhaps, if figures were still a part of their training (though not competed), the situation might be different.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
USFS does not give bonuses. In the US, Junior and Novice ladies who make it to Nationals typically go for the high-value jumps and some have 3-3s.

Most Novices don't have 3+3 at US Nationals, but the best Novices have a full set (or nearly so) of triples. In Juniors, this year it looks like a 3+3 is going to be required to get on the podium with Long and Edmunds going for 3+3 along with last year's Novice champ moving up and trying 3+3's in the summer...
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
OT: The men, during the GP series, had their share of edge calls. In the first two events of the series, the men received 14 edge calls. I believe the women had around 17. Sorry: was too lazy to go though all of the events. I guess if I were a skater I might see this differently, but I find myself perplexed that skaters have so much trouble using the correct edge. Perhaps, if figures were still a part of their training (though not competed), the situation might be different.

There are many reasons to get an edge call. A lot of skaters have a borderline edge in practice (it's inconsistently there or it's a flat instead of the wrong edge) or have fixed it in practice but under the stress of competition, it becomes more pronounced because the timing changes a little bit from the adreneline of competition (which can't be truly simulated in practice). Many coaches in the US still have figures as part of skater training (especially when teaching some of the MIF patterns, it's easier to teach it as the figure first).
 

npavel

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
I so much prefer the ones who don't do three 3F in the program without being punished! I find it really wrong that they pretend to get the points for the 3Lz for one of them, who is more than a proper 3F. I find the wrong edge take off of the 3Lz should be punished more so they would loss points and better repeat a Loop instead. If they can do a proper 3Lz, ok, but not 3fluz and get points for 3Lz.
than I think a reward of all 5 tripples with right edge take off should be considered.
 

bluesky85

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Gracie Gold doesn't flutz, but she does lip. Other lippers: Korpi, Osmond, Korobeynikova, Marchei.

And flutzing isn't a problem just for the American ladies.
Japanese: Suzuki, Murakami, Asada, Imai, Hongo, Matsuda, Miyahara, Tomotaki, Shoji, Oba
Russian: Makarova, Leonova, Lipnitskaia, Sotnikova, Shelepen, Gerasimova, Stavitskaia, Titushkina
Canadian: Lacoste, Osmond, Daleman
Other: Glebova, Li

Does Shelepen also flutz? I didn't know...
 

bluesky85

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
I thnk the issues with the triple lutz might be based on a few things. One, COP scrutinizes the jump far more than in the 6.0 system. COP makes a triple triple worth more than the triple lutz double toe/loop; a triple toe triple toe is often "easier" to do - same entrance and rhythm, flutzing/edge calls and underrotations are pivotal to the mark now and the ladies have so much more to be concerned about - spiral, spins, footwork, SS are worth a lot more now in the mark - and rarely can one be a master of all :)Still it is scarey to think medallists can get away with up to say a loop and no lutz or in some cases no real flip either.

Wow, really 3Ls-2t-2lo combo can be more difficult than 3t-3t?? That's something new that I found out today!
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The CoP has an opinion. 3Lz+2T+2Lo = 9.1; 3T+3T = 8.2. (But I think Skater Boy meant 3Lz + either 2T or 2Lo in a two-jump combo.)
 
Top