Asada shows improvement | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Asada shows improvement

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
CoP rules question: Doesn't this layout contain two sequences with three jumps? Is that OK?

This also, however, shows how difficult it is to get any real advantage by doing triple-triples instead of the same jumps solo. If she did the relatively safe 3F+2T and solo 3S (replacing the last 2A), she would only lose a couple of points with a much easier program.

No, that's not allowed. The sequence is considered a three jump combo. She could do a sequence AND a three jump combo, but the sequence has to be with multiple steps in between.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
No, that's not allowed. The sequence is considered a three jump combo. She could do a sequence AND a three jump combo, but the sequence has to be with multiple steps in between.

Right. Gracie did do a three jump combo with the last 2A at COR, but that's only cause she couldn't do the 3F-1L-3S combo.

No. If Yu-na did all five triples she would be in business. The rule specifically puts a roadblock before the hypothetical skater who can do a 3Lz+3T, a 2A+3T, but not a 3Lo.

Conversely, the changes benefit the hypothetical skater who has a 3A, a 3A+2T, but no triple-triple and no 3Lz or 3S.



What is her seventh jumping pass, a 2A?

This is a huge layout. On paper she should crush Ashley Wagner at U.S. Nationals. ;) The new rule about the half-loop sequencc allows a lot of cool stuff.

CoP rules question: Doesn't this layout contain two sequences with three jumps? Is that OK?

This also, however, shows how difficult it is to get any real advantage by doing triple-triples instead of the same jumps solo. If she did the relatively safe 3F+2T and solo 3S (replacing the last 2A), she would only lose a couple of points with a much easier program.

I think perhaps her team might plan alternative scenarios if she doesn't hit the jumps she wants.

For example, when she didn't hit the 3F combo at SC, she did a 3F-2T later in the program.
AT COR, when she didn't do the three jump combo, she did the 3F-2T AND the three jump combo on the last 2A.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Yu-Na could still do 3Lz+3Toe and 2A+3T in her Long Program, without doing a Triple Loop, and it would be worth more too:

3Lz+3T
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
-----
2A+3T
3Lz
3S
2Lz

Yes, a planned double lutz. I've been suggesting this for several skaters ever since they changed the scale of values after the Olympics (including to Yu-Na's team, when she trained it LA) but apparently nobody can see the wisdom in it.

The double lutz is worth 2.1 points, which is not insignificant. 2.1 + 7.4 points (from the 2Axel+3Toe combo) = 9.5 points. The 3Sal+2Toe and 2Axel jumping passes that Yu-Na's teams have instead decided upon post-2010 are worth a combined total of 8.8 points, which means Yu-Na is losing .7 points in base value from what should could be getting. She's also losing out on +GOE, since her 2Axel-3Toe is one of the best in the World and she can consistently can get +2 on it (as compared to usually only getting +1 at best for her 3Sal). Most importantly, she is losing that highlight move from her programs, which can result in less PCS because of a feeling that she has less power in her performances.

I've heard arguments that judges would look down upon a double lutz, but I disagree. A nice 'tano double lutz out of footwork at the end of program, and to the music, would be well regarded...especially with some clever campaigning about how we never see that kind of jump in competition anymore and "oh how brilliant is it that Yu-Na is utilizing jumps like this to express the music."
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
No. If Yu-na did all five triples she would be in business. The rule specifically puts a roadblock before the hypothetical skater who can do a 3Lz+3T, a 2A+3T, but not a 3Lo.

Conversely, the changes benefit the hypothetical skater who has a 3A, a 3A+2T, but no triple-triple and no 3Lz or 3S.

Except these were not some random hypothetical skaters, but very specific set of rival competitors, one with a strong federation who wants to take down their rival down with the full support of the sport governing body. The thing is with any change in rules, it can be argued either way and spin it however you like. The question should be on why these specific rule changes, how they came about, what were the formal vetting process? Why those specific timing just after the Olympics, and why these unique skill were targeted and suppressed?

If this is a true fair sport, would this sort of 'shenanigans' be acceptable that 'seems' to target one specific individual while designed to prop up their direct rival? It is more corrupted than 6.0! At least this sort selective targeting was not possible under 6.0!

ISU deserved to be scrutinized heavily by the Olympic Games Committee given what happened, and send a tax man to look over the background finance dealing of the key decision makers. COP book should be thrown out of the window and start over again. The rise of minimum TES and lessen GP spots makes it an even exclusive sport. Nobodies/Newbies wouldn't stand a chance to catch up with the old guards until at least 1 more seasons (Can they last a season in such an expensive sport?). Frankly, there's are enough circumstantial evidence and historical basis to make a case in the court of law, or certainly some sort of auditing process behind these latest 'rule' changes to show why the world should still take this sport seriously.

Can you imagine someone made a rule to insist Mohammed Ali he can only box with one glove because the competition sponsors doesn't like him? Or how about Usain bolt, sorry only one shoe lace for you, we want to make our American sponsors happy and give others a chance, and they are also given better trainers. Or that Michael Phelps, you won too much already, you must remove your Nose clips, it is a distraction to other skaters and give you an unfair advantage. Or how about Michael Jordan, no more dunks for you, you are making everyone else look bad etc. etc..
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Can you imagine someone made a rule to insist Mohammed Ali he can only box with one glove because the competition sponsors doesn't like him? Or how about Usain bolt, sorry only one shoe lace for you, we want to make our American sponsors happy and give others a chance, and they are also given better trainers. Or that Michael Phelps, you won too much already, you must remove your Nose clips, it is a distraction to other skaters and give you an unfair advantage. Or how about Michael Jordan, no more dunks for you, you are making everyone else look bad etc. etc..

Actually, in other sports they do the opposite. They change the rules to favor the dominant champion.

In basketball, Michael Jordan got four steps (the "Jordan Rules"), lesser stars three, while the rule book (snicker snicker) says two. In the Rumble in the Jungle, the famous boxing match between Muhammad Ali and George Forman in Zaire, they loosened the ropes so that Ali could do his rope-a-dope trick without getting knocked out.

Back to skating, at least the ISU changed the rules after the Olympics instead of before. In the season leading up to the 2006 Olympics they pulled the rug out from under Shen and Zhao by changing the rules to disallow their most effective jumps, while elevating Totmianina and Marinin's layout.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
This is why I'm a member of GS. I would never know any of that stuff from any other source, Math. I didn't realize that the ISU did what they did to pairs rules in the 2006 cycle. Did that occur before or after Hongbo Zhao ripped his Achilles and had the surgery? So what you're saying is that Shen and Zhao had not only a long comeback from surgery going against them but also a trick in the rules book, and they STILL got a bronze? That's pretty breathtaking. I'm so glad they finally won their gold. Maybe things do work out in the long run, at least sometimes.

I didn't know about the "Jordan Rules." It's moments like this that I'm glad my real favorite sport is classical music.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yu-Na could still do 3Lz+3Toe and 2A+3T in her Long Program, without doing a Triple Loop, and it would be worth more too:

3Lz+3T
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
-----
2A+3T
3Lz
3S
2Lz

Base value 43.37. Curiously, this program is beaten by

3Lo
3Lz2T
3T+3T
-----
3S
3F
2A+2T+2Lo
3Lz

Base value 44.70. This is Michelle Kwan’s jump layout from 2000 worlds, with the addition of the +2LT+2Lo. This illustrates the advantage a skater has in the IJS if she can present all five triples.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Did that occur before or after Hongbo Zhao ripped his Achilles and had the surgery?

Before. People speculated that Hongbo's injury came about during intensive practice of the new moves, which did not come naturally to him at that stage of his career.

It's moments like this that I'm glad my real favorite sport is classical music.

Of course there was the time when Van Cliburn blew everyone off the stage at the 1958 Tchaikovsky Competition. The organizers were aghast. We can't give this prize to an American!!! Cliburn won only after the direct intervention of Soviet Premier Nikita Krushchev.

http://mcgarnagle.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/khrushchev_shoe1.jpg

Caption: "Give that boy his gold medal!"
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Other examples of major ISU rule changes that seem to have been inspired by specific skaters were the introduction of the singles short program (in 1972-73, a post-Olympic year) and the "Zayak" rule limiting repeated triple jumps (in 1982-83, mid-quadrennial).

These were arguably much more significant changes than the adjustments to the jump distribution rules being discussed here. But at least they gave all the top skaters time to adjust before the next Olympics, assuming they were planning to stick around that long (which Janet Lynn had not been, and unfortunately she couldn't adjust to the concept of required elements within one year, with fewer pre-Worlds competition opportunities).

Certainly not as significant as eliminating school figures entirely or switching from an ordinal-based to a point-based scoring system though. But at least those happened mid-Olympiad as well.

I'm sure the thought process was less "We don't want Skater/Team Q to win, so let's change the rules to stack the deck against them" but rather "We don't like that competitions are often being won almost solely on the strength of Skill X (of which Skater/Team Q is the most prominent example) over other skaters that almost everyone agrees is more well-rounded or better in what we almost all consider more important areas, so let's change the rules to make Skill X less of a determining factor."

Either way, the change ends up making things harder for Q if they're still competing. But they probably shouldn't take it personally.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Hey think all the rule changing chatter merits it's own thread? Probably should leave this thread to be about Asada's improvements and such....
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Of course there was the time when Van Cliburn blew everyone off the stage at the 1958 Tchaikovsky Competition. The organizers were aghast. We can't give this prize to an American!!! Cliburn won only after the direct intervention of Soviet Premier Nikita Krushchev.

http://mcgarnagle.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/khrushchev_shoe1.jpg

Caption: "Give that boy his gold medal!"

I know that story, and I really love it, because the idea of a cold-war Soviet dictator giving permission to award a top prize to an American is so heartening. Another factor that makes the story even more remarkable: that was not just the Tchaikovsky Competition. It was the FIRST Tchaikovsky Competition ever held, as far as I can figure out. And they still were willing to award the gold medal to the American.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Other examples of major ISU rule changes that seem to have been inspired by specific skaters were the introduction of the singles short program (in 1972-73, a post-Olympic year) and the "Zayak" rule limiting repeated triple jumps (in 1982-83, mid-quadrennial)....

The annual tweaking of the CoP rules, though, has a different flavor. The diminution and eventual abolition of figures changed not just the scoring system but the sport. (It used to be figure skating, suddenly it wasn't. :) ) The Zayak rule was not really necessary under 6.0. If the judges decided that many repetitions of the same element was not particularly impressive, they could vote with their marks.

Under CoP it seems like the skaters are playing cat-and-mouse with the rules. At the end of each season the mice get caught and the ISU tries to plug a few more mouse holes.

For instance, under the 2010 rules there was nothing to stop a skater from doing seven double axels. Do each of them well enough to get +2 GOE and that's 5.50 points per jump (plus second half bonus). Oops. Formerly there was nothing to prevent a skater from doing a Bielmann position on every spin and spiral and earn levels for them right and left. Oops. Lysacek won the Olympic gold medal without a quad. Oops -- better raise the value of quads.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
For instance, under the 2010 rules there was nothing to stop a skater from doing seven double axels. Do each of them well enough to get +2 GOE and that's 5.50 points per jump (plus second half bonus). Oops. Formerly there was nothing to prevent a skater from doing a Bielmann position on every spin and spiral and earn levels for them right and left. Oops. Lysacek won the Olympic gold medal without a quad. Oops -- better raise the value of quads.

Actually, the rule was limited to three double axels, wasn't it?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ It was? OK, that makes sense. I wonder if allowing the third double Axel was specifically for the purpose of bailing out skaters who did not have the full complement of triples.
 
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