US Men: Nationals and Beyond | Page 2 | Golden Skate

US Men: Nationals and Beyond

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
The important thing for the U.S now is to have their middle aged and young guys who can all be around for 2018 start to establish themselves. Meaning nobody older than Miner and Rippon already are. The last thing they should do is even consider throwing an ounce of support to oldies like Lysacek and Abbott next year. Better to send a skater who is trying to establish himself for the 2015-2018 quad to possibly finish 7th or 8th, then send a skater who is retiring like Lysacek or Abbott to finish 9th or 10th. I dont think the U.S has any medal hopes whatsoever for Sochi no matter who makes the team, but they can start to set themselves up for post Sochi where there will surely be a ton of retirements.

I agree. I feel there was really no need for Josh Farris, or Jason Brown even, to be kept on the JGP again this season, or for someone like Max Aaron with his huge content, and even Keegan Messing, to not be given at least a GP host pick. I know they are all young and good has come out of the whole situation, but honestly, people have been saying for awhile now that Aaron and Farris could probably do better at GP events than "comeback" Johnny, and even the likes of shaky Abbott, Rippon, and Dornbush. At Nationals they showed they are some of the best guys in the Nation so it's a shame they have to go into the Olympic season as essentially unknown rookies. I know for Josh not making the team isn't a big deal because he'll be prime age for 2018, for some of the other guys like Max and Keegan who are like 3 years older, it's a tough call, they are young now, but by 2018 they might be feeling their age and be more prone to injuries.
 

SkateFan66

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
I agree. I feel there was really no need for Josh Farris, or Jason Brown even, to be kept on the JGP again this season, or for someone like Max Aaron with his huge content, and even Keegan Messing, to not be given at least a GP host pick. I know they are all young and good has come out of the whole situation, but honestly, people have been saying for awhile now that Aaron and Farris could probably do better at GP events than "comeback" Johnny, and even the likes of shaky Abbott, Rippon, and Dornbush. At Nationals they showed they are some of the best guys in the Nation so it's a shame they have to go into the Olympic season as essentially unknown rookies. I know for Josh not making the team isn't a big deal because he'll be prime age for 2018, for some of the other guys like Max and Keegan who are like 3 years older, it's a tough call, they are young now, but by 2018 they might be feeling their age and be more prone to injuries.

Abbott, Rippon and Dornbush got two GP events based on their ISU ranking, in other words they earned it. Aaron and Keegan did not get SA host picks because they finished behind Armin and Razzano at 2012 nationals. However, both Aaron and Keegan received Senior B assignments. Aaron took advantage of the Senior Bs and made great strides this year. Unfortunately, Keegan regressed after his Senior Bs. However, on a positive note, Alexander Johnson had a great showing at nationals, and has been awarded with a Senior B. :)

Jason Brown was kept in JGP because he had no tripple axel. No amount af artestry can make up for a lack of both a quad and tripple axel at the senior GP level. IMO, Farris benefited from competing in JGP this year. At most, he would have received one senior GP spot based on his ISU ranking (plus he was low on the SA host pick pecking order due to his poor placement at 2012 nationals) By competing in the JGP, he was able to skate before international judges at three competitions, and he gained valuable ISU ranking points. He was also able to gain confidence with solid finishes in all his JGP events. If he had skated at on the senior GP, he probably would have, at best, placed mid-pack.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
If a skater qualifies for two GP assignments per the ISU comeback rule, then they are doing it the "proper way." :rolleye: (last I checked, not ALL federations hosted GP events; therefore, not ALL federations can hand out host picks)

No. If they want to come back, fine. They should EARN it, the way every other skater has to. They should go to Nationals and EARN their place on the GP. Not rely on handouts without having to prove themselves first.
 

SkateFan66

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
No. If they want to come back, fine. They should EARN it, the way every other skater has to. They should go to Nationals and EARN their place on the GP. Not rely on handouts without having to prove themselves first.

GP assignments are governed by ISU rules. The ISU awards skaters that have EARNED high placement at Worlds with an opportunity to return to the GP after taking time off from competing. But maybe the ISU will have a change of heart in the next few years and stop giving out the 'handouts' to the GP. Just think how 'unfair' it would be if, in ten years, a current novice skater was not given a GP assignment because Chan, Hanyu, Brown, Aaron, or Farris decided that they wanted to return to competition. ;-)
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
No. If they want to come back, fine. They should EARN it, the way every other skater has to. They should go to Nationals and EARN their place on the GP. Not rely on handouts without having to prove themselves first.

GP spots were not GIVEN to Weir. Two federations INVITED him.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Abbott, Rippon and Dornbush got two GP events based on their ISU ranking, in other words they earned it. Aaron and Keegan did not get SA host picks because they finished behind Armin and Razzano at 2012 nationals. However, both Aaron and Keegan received Senior B assignments. Aaron took advantage of the Senior Bs and made great strides this year. Unfortunately, Keegan regressed after his Senior Bs. However, on a positive note, Alexander Johnson had a great showing at nationals, and has been awarded with a Senior B. :)

Jason Brown was kept in JGP because he had no tripple axel. No amount af artestry can make up for a lack of both a quad and tripple axel at the senior GP level. IMO, Farris benefited from competing in JGP this year. At most, he would have received one senior GP spot based on his ISU ranking (plus he was low on the SA host pick pecking order due to his poor placement at 2012 nationals) By competing in the JGP, he was able to skate before international judges at three competitions, and he gained valuable ISU ranking points. He was also able to gain confidence with solid finishes in all his JGP events. If he had skated at on the senior GP, he probably would have, at best, placed mid-pack.

I realize all this. And like I said, in the case of Farris, Aaron, and Brown, competing on JGP/Senior B circuit ended up working out well for them this season, so there is a silver lining to it all. However, Brown and Farris both could have had a guaranteed senior GP event this season had they chosen to move up, and if they had, it likely would have meant Rippon and/or Dornbush would have only gotten 1 assignment instead of 2. So while those guys did earn their events, they benefited from Yan, Farris, and Brown - the top 3 junior men, all staying on the JGP another season. I think Yan and Farris could have maybe gotten 2 GPs had they moved up, too, given the strength of their SB and WS. As for Messing and Aaron, senior Bs give them WS points, but no SB, so that's why they haven't gotten GP events yet. If Senior B events counted for an ISU SB, Aaron and maybe even Messing likely would have gotten a GP invite this season, or at least, they'd deserve to. I wonder if the ISU will change the SB rule and count senior B events, I wish they would, it would make the GP selection more open and less biased I would think.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I will not believe for a second that Weir was actually injured; but he has only himself to blame for that since he has a past littered with such incidents

Really? Really? Care to enumerate them?

I guess I don't understand why there is such animosity toward Weir and Lysacek coming back and yet people are falling all over themselves wishing that Plushenko is successful in his comeback! Plushenko is older, has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more physical problems, and it's not clear to me after all his surgeries how he can compete on the international level with success. Time will tell. I tend to have faith that the USFSA tries their best to field a team with the best possibilities and if that includes Weir and Lysacek - so be it! If it doesn't? So be that, too! If Jeremy had skated clean at Nationals this year this conversation would be totally different. I still tend to think that if he can lay down 2 good skates there are only a few men in the world that can beat him. I can't and won't try to predict what the US Men's team will do in Sochii because it's well over a year away. Anything can happen between now and then - anything! I will say that Keegan Messing has never impressed me with his skating and really hasn't done anything to warrant being in the mix. Don't give up on Adam Rippon!! He turned himself around this year. His freeskate was commendable. He screwed up in the short program or this conversation would also be different. Aaron is going to be handed his hat on a platter unless he improves dramatically in his presentation - dramatically! Brown has a chance if he can get his 3A and a quad. He's charismatic and the crowd loves him. He has the presentation skills. At the age of 18, just barely, it's not impossible for him to get those jumps this year. Farris is a wild card IMO. He had a great skate at Nationals. Was it luck or can he be consistent in the future. Dornbush is doomed to be an also-ran. He never quite seems to get it together. And I have no opinion on Miner!!! Maybe a good choreographer and some great music might help. He has the skills.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
I will correct myself there. Lysacek did indeed have surgery (I forgot), so he did not chicken out of Nationals. I don't think he would have won though.
Maybe not, but who cares, LOL. Second place would have been enough to compete at Worlds. As Lysacek won the 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics, he was not the US champion... instead he peaked at the right time in both cases.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Maybe not, but who cares, LOL. Second place would have been enough to compete at Worlds. As Lysacek won the 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics, he was not the US champion... instead he peaked at the right time in both cases.

Stop living in the past. There is more chance of Tonya Harding becoming the first female president than Lysacek ever winning a World title again.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I agree. I feel there was really no need for Josh Farris, or Jason Brown even, to be kept on the JGP again this season, or for someone like Max Aaron with his huge content, and even Keegan Messing, to not be given at least a GP host pick. I know they are all young and good has come out of the whole situation, but honestly, people have been saying for awhile now that Aaron and Farris could probably do better at GP events than "comeback" Johnny, and even the likes of shaky Abbott, Rippon, and Dornbush. At Nationals they showed they are some of the best guys in the Nation so it's a shame they have to go into the Olympic season as essentially unknown rookies. I know for Josh not making the team isn't a big deal because he'll be prime age for 2018, for some of the other guys like Max and Keegan who are like 3 years older, it's a tough call, they are young now, but by 2018 they might be feeling their age and be more prone to injuries.

Yes the USFSA clearly is misguides in their priorities. To not given many of those guys any GP assignments and to give Johnny freaking Weir 2 grand prix assignments is unbelievable. They need to let go of the past and move forward if they are going to get anywhere in the next few years.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Yes the USFSA clearly is misguides in their priorities. To not given many of those guys any GP assignments and to give Johnny freaking Weir 2 grand prix assignments is unbelievable. They need to let go of the past and move forward if they are going to get anywhere in the next few years.

USFSA didn't give Weir any Grand Prix assignments. The only GP assignments they have to give are to Skate America, and they didn't give him that.

The other GP assignments are invitations from the respective host federations.

If USFSA had refused to submit Weir's name to the Grand Prix pool, there is no guarantee that those other federations would have invited another American skater instead.

So by allowing him to be invited, they were not preventing any other US skaters from being invited.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Well either way next year I predict to see Weir with 0 grand prix assignments. Lysacek I am not sure what to expect, but if he does get any I predict him to withdraw from them just like this year. Hopefully Aaron, Miner, Farris all get 2 assignments. Abbott will for sure be given 2 to appropriately bomb like usual.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
^^^^
Johnny puts more butts in the seats than Josh Farris, even if he skates poorly
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Other than in the U.S nobody gives a rats toot about either Weir or Farris at this point in time. So that doesnt even come into play. Nobody in France or China is buying their tickets based on whether either of those are there, but based on which Japanese men, whether Chan, or perhaps whether Plushenko in his latest bold comeback try or present, along with in Europe perhaps Joubert as he has a big following there, and the home country men per country.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I believe Weir does have a fan base in Russia.

And Japan. If Johnny was as irrelevant outside the U.S. as some of you are presuming, why is he still getting invited to skating shows?
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Johnny has a very strong fanbase in Russia, Japan and Korea and probably elsewhere in Europe where many don't care how he dresses or what he does off the ice. And like Mskater93 said - he does put butts in the seats. And for that reason I think the USFSA was interested in him competing.
 

Eislauf

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
The important thing for the U.S now is to have their middle aged and young guys who can all be around for 2018 start to establish themselves. Meaning nobody older than Miner and Rippon already are. The last thing they should do is even consider throwing an ounce of support to oldies like Lysacek and Abbott next year. Better to send a skater who is trying to establish himself for the 2015-2018 quad to possibly finish 7th or 8th, then send a skater who is retiring like Lysacek or Abbott to finish 9th or 10th. I dont think the U.S has any medal hopes whatsoever for Sochi no matter who makes the team, but they can start to set themselves up for post Sochi where there will surely be a ton of retirements.
Agreed. I hope the USFSA will start grooming Farris, Johnson and Brown for post-Sochi dominance. Abbot is done and, like Lysacek and Weir, is simply too old and thus injury-prone, as we have seen.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I would think that a competition that included an Olympic Gold Medalist making a comeback would be an exciting public event. Neither Lysacek nor Plushenko will go without GP assignments if they're skating next year. Organizers must put butts in seats, and their participation would more probably provide more money via television contracts.

I'd love to see more skating on television, and the GP Series during the lead-up to the Olympics is a good opportunity if properly managed... and promoting a rematch of the Olympic final just makes business sense. Now, at the end of the day, perhaps neither will be in the medal mix... but by then, the hard-core fans will have seen the GP Series, and the casual fan will have been exposed to new and exciting skaters. Who knows??? Skating's popularity could rise again.

Johnny Weir is not a personal favorite of mine, but he has a worldwide fanbase. It wouldn't make much sense to exclude him.

Now all of this is from a PR Perspective... I'm sure some of the lesser-known skaters would suffer from the "old guys" sucking up all the oxygen.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
1. Evan Lysacek came back in the 11/12 season. He got TEB and Skate America. He was eligible for one spot based on his WR ranking (one season off doesn't drop you entirely due to the held-over scores, especially if you had a strong season like Lysacek did the Olympic season) and one as a host pick. He withdrew. He got one GP spot for the 12/13 season (this one) - a host pick from Skate America. Is he still eligible for return as a comeback skater (skaters that made top six in a previous Worlds/Olympics are comeback skaters) and get two spots

2. Johnny Weir had his two slots (CoR and TEB) this year as a comeback skater (which he earned as a World Bronze Medalist, 2008 and/or Olympics top 6). He would only be eligible for one spot next year (host pick) as he's not high enough in the WR list otherwise, right (tied for 135th thanks to Finlandia)

3. I give Weir monster credit for actually competing at Finlandia and CoR, frankly.

4. While I definitely think that Lysacek would bring people to an event, I wonder if the long term health/popularity of the sport would be better served by showcasing the best of tomorrow (in general, I'd assert that host picks should be about that, to be honest - yesterday/today/tomorrow, and all that)
 
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