2013 Japanese Nationals Men | Page 13 | Golden Skate

2013 Japanese Nationals Men

giulia95

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
JSF invested too much in Yuzu with all this coach changing, etc., so it's kind of logical that they did whatever they could to justify their choice. !

I totally agree with this... now it’s clear THEY wanted Yuzu to go to Canada and since then he has been paying a very high price, both physically and mentally. It’s sad to say it, but at least the fairy tale about the kid who firmly wanted to leave his hometown to train abroad is over... :slink:
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Thanks for the protocols which makes it a interesting reading.
Consider Hanyu was marked generous for both programs, though SP is deserved consider it is a home event and the standard he displayed. Not so sure about the FS given what I saw.
Judges could be more generous with Dai but there were no GPF bonus.
The difference could work out something like
2.5 points underscore from Dai for the SP
2 points overscore from Hanyu for LP (eg 1-1.25 point off Hanyu's GOEs and PCS wise knock off 0.25-0.5 Skating Skills, 0.25 P/E, 0.25 Interpretation)
1 points from that weird feather from costumes.
Dai could have got the gold.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
After watching the skates, I don't have a problem with the placements, though I liked Dai's FS the most. If Dai won, I'd be fine with that, but giving the two programs as a whole, I think Hanyu was a worthy winner.

Sad for Kozuka and Oda, but happy for Mura. I really think he has some good momentum going after that poor skate at Skate Canada. I think while he doesn't have the program components, he certainly makes up for it in lovely jumps and skating skills (and for the most part going clean).
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Daisuke's FS... regardless of my criticism of the choreography, that guy IS a bonafide skating God!! This is undoubtedly the best Men's best FS I have seen or experienced all season. I practically had a weird existential experience overall watching Dai on this occasion like no other. I don't know about others, but during the step sequences, I suddenly became overwhelmed with an heartache that completely shook and surprised the heck out of me. After the rest of my logical senses caught up, I figured this is why Dai is the greatest most watchable male performer! He has the soul of the true artist. They can do that with the slightest touch when they are at ease with themselves and not seem to try so hard.

I haven't watched yet, but I suspect that this is the way I'll react to Daisuke's skate. Whether he wins or places elsewhere, he has a command of movement and music that few other skaters can match.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
os168 said:
2 points overscore from Hanyu for LP (eg 1-1.25 point off Hanyu's GOEs and PCS wise knock off 0.25-0.5 Skating Skills, 0.25 P/E, 0.25 Interpretation)

As if you couldn't say some of Dai's marks were generous too. I completly adore him as a skater, but that doesn't change this far from perfect choreography and the 'missing' transitions. And he got 9.25-9.75's for those components too.
I think this could have gone either way, but Yuzuru deserved his gold medal. Some of this conspiracy theories here are just... :sarcasm:

Anyway: this season sucks!!!! :cry:
Okay, so, maybe not completly... but Nobu and Taka nor at worlds nor 4CC? That's aweful. I used to watch Kozuka's gorgeous 'Sound of Silent' Ex to cheer me up on sadder days, and now that won't work anymore I guess. I'll miss him at worlds!
And Oda, as an Osakan and being 4th, not even getting 4CC is just... I fell so sad for him.

On the upside, I'm really, really happy for Mura. He has a lot of potential, and I enjoy his skating a lot. Hopefully he'll be great at both 4CC & worlds and really use the chance he got :)

Daisuke really showed he still has it all. Hope he nails it like that again at worlds. This plus a better SP and he could be WC for the second time. I would love to see that happen.
The main credit I'd give to Yuzuru now is skating the way he did after what Daisuke put out. He is one heck of a competitor. If he continues to work on his strength and stamina, he might become pretty consistent. And we know how much the jugdes love that... and speed. And huge monstrous jumps. Yuzuru is like made for this system.
 

Aesthetics

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
The difference could work out something like
2.5 points underscore from Dai for the SP
I don’t see how Dai was underscored 2.5 points in the sp-even some his fans think he underotated his 3a in the sp but was not called. If that was called then he was overscored 2.5 points, not underscored. So his tes would be 40.89 and total score 85.54.
Then he already got a very high pcs, 44.65. If you give him 2.5 points more it would be skyrocketing 47.15. I don’t think Dai’s sp, or anybody’s sp, deserves 47 pcs.

2 points overscore from Hanyu for LP (eg 1-1.25 point off Hanyu's GOEs and PCS wise knock off 0.25-0.5 Skating Skills, 0.25 P/E, 0.25 Interpretation)
As if you couldn't say some of Dai's marks were generous too. I completly adore him as a skater, but that doesn't change this far from perfect choreography and the 'missing' transitions. And he got 9.25-9.75's for those components too.
I second Li’Kitsu. Dai got generous marks. He put out a marvellous performance and deserved 9.75 for p/e mark, but not enough transitions-his tr mark is generous. His skating skills are not too much better than Hanyu, who actually has better speed and ice coverage for example. If you knock off Hanyu’s ss then you should also knock off Dai’s ss mark. Then if you knock off Hanyu’s goe you should also knock off Dai’s goe, since Dai’s jumps are smaller and spins weaker. In general I think Dai was not underscored when he got pcs 96 and goe 17 while Hanyu’s pcs was kept below 90.

The main credit I'd give to Yuzuru now is skating the way he did after what Daisuke put out. He is one heck of a competitor. If he continues to work on his strength and stamina, he might become pretty consistent. And we know how much the jugdes love that... and speed. And huge monstrous jumps. Yuzuru is like made for this system.
I also second this. This is what I began to think after watching Hanyu live at NHK.
 

Riemann

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
His skating skills are not too much better than Hanyu, who actually has better speed and ice coverage for example.

I think your point about speed is an important one. A lot of people criticize Hanyu for losing speed during his FS, and that is valid, but one also has to recognize how fast he is to begin with. He flies across the ice during his SP and the first part of his FS.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I do love Hanyu's music but I watch him wishing Dai or Chan were skating to it but that's just me.

I wish Kozuka was still going to worlds like Akiko but he is injured. I hope he makes it back where it belongs next season.
 
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let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
in the sp-even some his fans think he underotated his 3a in the sp but was not called.

Dai got generous marks.
Lame playing of 'fans card' I see here. His fans (and judges too, looking at GOE) also think that the ur and e calls in SP were wrong. How conveniently you "forgot" to mention that. :laugh:

As for the "generous" marks, it's all about to what you compare it. It's doesn't make sense to compare Nationals to international competitions and we all know why. The only more or less right way to compare the score at Nationals is to compare it to the rival's. And here the one who got generously overscored with all home advantge was Yuzu, while Dai got none, and he actually was judged way strcicter than even at international events (ur, sq level, etc.). Yuzu didn't even start with high speed as he used to do. Now he gets it slowerer, probably trying to keep his stamina to finish the prog. It might caused his mistakes on both quads, one of which didn't even get -GOE, the 4S from two-foot was judged rather kind. Then he just lost his speed completly and was walking from elements to elements expressing no musicality and character. When they make fake champions from evans, sarahs, chans and others- I don't care much. They all donn't have any talent or charisma. Yuzu could become a real star, the one whose prog people would want to rewatch, like his R&J in Nice. Wanting to rewatch a sick kid who needs food, hug and who can bearly finish his prog is not healthy to say the least. If they don't change the coaching policy readrding Yuzu, he won't have a long career, which would be a real shame considering his potential. Stupid JSF. :disapp:
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Takahashi definitely won this event from my perspective. He vastly outskated Hanyu in the LP and made just a small mistake in the SP. I don't think his SP Quad deserved that < call and Hanyu was gifted in the LP both on PCS and GOE (especially for those shaky quads, which should have been -2 on the first and -3 on the second).
 

figuristka

Medalist
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Sorry to read Kozuka was injured. He is a lovely skater. I adore so many things about Yuzuru but i felt his Free should not have been placed quite as close to Dai's. Should have been closer between them for the Gold. I often think Dai should have even more 10s for performance execution and interpretation of music. How can this part be any better? Japan is so lucky to have Dai, and Yuzuru. Its unfortunate there are so many talented Japanese men who may not be able to get to Worlds, or Olympics. Alexei Yagudin who i adored was not national champion when he won Olympics, or even Worlds. It hopefully should not hurt Dai to not win Nationals.
 

iluvtodd

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Country
United-States
I wish Kozuka was still going to worlds like Akiko but he is injured. I hope he makes it back where it belongs next season.

Crushed and heartbroken for Taka, but hoping he's back stronger than ever for the Olympic season. Thrilled that Akiko will go to Worlds!
 

Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Sorry to read Kozuka was injured. He is a lovely skater. I adore so many things about Yuzuru but i felt his Free should not have been placed quite as close to Dai's. Should have been closer between them for the Gold. I often think Dai should have even more 10s for performance execution and interpretation of music. How can this part be any better? Japan is so lucky to have Dai, and Yuzuru. Its unfortunate there are so many talented Japanese men who may not be able to get to Worlds, or Olympics. Alexei Yagudin who i adored was not national champion when he won Olympics, or even Worlds. It hopefully should not hurt Dai to not win Nationals.

Actually, Alexei has never won a Senior National title. Very shocking, indeed. That's what happens when you have one of the greatest rivalries in figure skating with a fellow countrymen :p
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Re: Li'Kitsu, Aesthetics

I see I touched a nerve... please chill, I am a huge fan of Hanyu but I'd like to consider myself as someone who tries to be objective.

Here's my perspective. The more I learn about Cop - the more I learn not to take these scores as absolute numbers but more of a threshold/tolerance level determined by a bunch of variables about the competition that can determine whether the final mark are at the upper threshold or lower threshold almost like a moving dartboard. Sometimes Judges can hit a bulls eye (if the quality of judging is high and unbiased), but more likely they can also get it incredibly wrong subject to human error. Bear mind, these judges are really making an estimates, therefore do account for things like emotional impulses, impressions, perceived ideas, personal biases of how the ranking of skaters, and very importantly (though a taboo subject) national competition judges tends to have personal agendas that can determine how they mark the skaters, for the good of federation, national interest and all that.

Hanyu is the fav home boy who broke 2 SP world record this year, so of course they are pushing for him to break 3rd hoping to build him momentum to worlds for a 4th WR. In someways I felt Daisuke is being held down because they probably have an idea that they want Hanyu to rank 1st because his program is a world record program, and Dai's doesn't have the prestige of a world class choreographer to back it up. I am not the only one who saw the strict calling on Dai on this occasion. I don't even want to get into how loose they are with Ladies and their UR at this competition, that is another whole can of worms.

For FS, Imo Dai's probably Maxed 95% tech and 105% artistry potential of his program in showing that he can overcome a so so program, mediocre choreography and still make something superb. The achievement in itself spectacular and can not be measured by COP. If I am a choreographer, I'd fight tooth and nail just to land Dai in my books and even consider offer to work for free. He is capable of taking choreography beyond and give them life. It may sound gushy, but I can totally understand the previous poster who mentioned he/she wish Daisuke has been given David Wilson's choreography for Notre Dame, because the only way for that program to work, is to really focus on the soaring highlights of the music when the artist/performer must be thoroughly emotionally invested really showcase each soaring notes with freedom and complete abandonment - similar to how Hanyu was at his Romeo and Juliet WC version last year really letting himself go. For this performance, I'd say he maxed out 84% tech, 64% artistry. He isn't just focus on the tech but seems to focus on his pacing as while visibly clenched not letting himself go, and was slower by his standard. Regardless of his physical conditions and personal circumstances, we can only judge on what he put out on the day, and imo he slacked alot on this particular performance, thus my view he was overmarked in PCS and benefited generously from GOE.

If you compare Hanyu's FS performance PCS this year with last year's Romeo and Juliet PCS (WC version), I'd easily place last year as higher than this year based on what i see (though last year he was under marked). If you also compare his PCS from early of the season, you'd see how much Hanyu improved through out the season, and while he deserve the momentum, he was lucky today. You compare to someone like Dai who worked years putting out consistent great work to achieve high PCS and today he put out one of his best performance in ages including 2 quads, he deserve his high PCS. I personally think they should be alot closer than 5 points, as I have suggested in my earlier post particularly with regards to PCS.

Overall, these 2 are amazing and each have their own strength, but based on what I saw, I'd have Dai win the gold by 0.05 points at least ;)
 
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let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Fuji TV is unbearable. With their loads of commercials, fluff and other nonsense, they must be thinking that their TV audience are not fs fans who want to watch as many skaters as possible, but some bunch of boring cows who cares only about household products, greasy food and other crap, while fs comes just "in package". Even Asahi (GPF) was slightly less annoying. TV Tokyo- almost elegant :biggrin:. JSport is probably the only one who know what the word "sport" stands for.

They didn't show Steph in Gala, who judging by the photos was skating Ritz (not enough tv place with 2 skaters in 20 minutes coverage :rolleye:). Mao was charming and very positive, skated clean and inspired the audience. I am specially grateful when girls skate smth. different than ice princess stuff. For the encore she skated the last part of her current SP and was on fire. Yuzu skated his EX in that shichi-go-san girlish kimono, was singing together with the music and the singer (live band), had some sloppy landing on the last jump. In general I think he feels much better in this EX than in any other of his current progs. Maybe that's why he chose R&J final part for the encore. What a huge and pleasant surprise it was! The old guy showed up with all it energy and charisma, even the hunchback on his sitspin somehow almost disappeared. Why Abe could do that? Still when he finished he looked very pale and wet. Mura did very well in his "Talking to the Moon", did what he wanted including his fantastic 3A. Dai skated Tango with live band. He is probably using a new hair product now. That gorgeous brunette in the argentinianish costume was too seducingly good ;). He had a small step-out on 3A and it always amuzes me how upset he feels when he is not perfect in galas, even more upset than in competitions. That's why the audience worships him that much. For the encore he skated Mambo which was a kind of surprise considering that normally he skated the last part of his SP this season. But Mambo is sooooo popular among the audience in galas that it probably was some kind of request from the people of frozen Sapporo who supported him so faithfully :agree:. How could he refuse. Kanako and Akiko skated their EXs, seems they were like clean, but I didn't really follow them. Sometimes it got too difficult to bear Fluff TV without knowing when the next skater comes.
Dai's EX: www.youtube.com/watch?v=KURspQLLvYE
 

giulia95

Medalist
Joined
Jun 19, 2012
thank you sooo much for the report!!! I hope to see all japanese heroes soon! I can't believe R&J is back ...what a nostalgia!!:bow:
 

itoja

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Takahashi definitely won this event from my perspective. He vastly outskated Hanyu in the LP and made just a small mistake in the SP. I don't think his SP Quad deserved that < call and Hanyu was gifted in the LP both on PCS and GOE (especially for those shaky quads, which should have been -2 on the first and -3 on the second).

:agree:

And what about Hanyu's 3A+3T? Was his 3T fully rotated? And 2.20 GOE for that? I know his entry is crazy, and his Axel usually is so powerful, but this time it wasn't.
 

Kalina

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 30, 2012
I wonder if last year there was all this fuss here about Daisuke winning Nationals over Kozuka after he totally bombed in the free skate. Probably not.
Li'Kitsu here was the only one who dared to say that maybe, just maybe, Daisuke getting over 9 in transitions in the free skate when he doesn't have any is too much. I might add that he regularly gets way more than Kozuka in skating skills when he doesn't deserve it, just like Hanyu doesn't; but if it's Hanyu it's an insult to Kozuka, if it's Daisuke it's okay and nobody ever brings it up. He gets an underrotation call in the free, and it's unfair because the judges clearly did it to make him lose: well, if he'd gotten all level fours in the spins and steps he would have won regardless. There's a clear disparity of treatment here, IMO. Just because he has many fans and he's loved by many (rightly so), it doesn't mean that he doesn't have faults or that he doesn't get overscored at times, like all skaters do.
With that said, I think people tend to watch skating too much from a fan's perspective and forget that this is a sport, and that in terms of scoring components = tech, as in, they have the same importance. Daisuke's performances are great, probably even the best right now in the men's category in terms of artistry, but he has technical shortcomings: in the same way, Hanyu has artistic shortcomings due to his age and the fact that he's not mature and polished yet, but has outstanding technique. Is it so hard to accept that maybe he's as much of a talent technically, as Daisuke is artistically? And that these two things may put them on the same level when it comes to scoring?
 
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