2013 Japanese Nationals Men | Page 14 | Golden Skate

2013 Japanese Nationals Men

lakeside

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
It's doesn't make sense to compare Nationals to international competitions and we all know why. The only more or less right way to compare the score at Nationals is to compare it to the rival's. And here the one who got generously overscored with all home advantge was Yuzu, while Dai got none, and he actually was judged way strcicter than even at international events (ur, sq level, etc.).
I don’t think the Japanese domestic judges were harsher to Takahashi since Takahashi got UR calls at all international events this season, especially his quads have been called UR a lot. At CoC he got 4T < in SP, 4T <<, 4T <, and 3Lo < in LP. At NHK he got 4T < in LP. At GPF he got 3T < in LP. If Takahashi’s 4T has been called < and even << four times in recent international events, then the calls at Japanese Nationals were not strict at all.

Same for Takahashi’s step sequence level, his SP StSeq got level 3s at CoC, GPF, and Nationals – 3 times out of 4 events. His LP StSeq got level 3s at NHK, GPF, and Nationals – 3 times out of 4 events. The international judges and domestic judges score him in the same way.

For FS, Imo Dai's probably Maxed 95% tech and 105% artistry potential of his program in showing that he can overcome a bad program, mediocre choreography and still make something superb. The achievement in itself spectacular and can not be measured by COP.
Takahashi really skated very well in the LP. The performance itself was good because he was almost clean and he tried hard to perform. He deserved a high P/E score for that. But the choreography is still generic without many transitions. If the choreography is that generic to start with, then the skater needs more effort to pull it off, which is why at earlier competitions many people found this program not as good as his other programs. This time Takahashi skated almost 100% good and finally made it work, but with a better progrm he may only need 80%.

I think Takahashi will get better programs for the Olympic season, and he deserves better programs than this. His exhibition program choreographed by Miyamoto was way better than this. Overall, I think Takahashi is getting his jumps back and will be a gold medal contender at Worlds.

Hanyu wasn't just slow. He looked like a sick yellowish kid who lost his speed before he started.
I think your point about speed is an important one. A lot of people criticize Hanyu for losing speed during his FS, and that is valid, but one also has to recognize how fast he is to begin with. He flies across the ice during his SP and the first part of his FS.
I don’t know how someone would think “Hanyu wasn't just slow. He looked like a sick yellowish kid who lost his speed before he started.” I compared the beginnings of Yuzru and Takahashi’s programs. After watching the first minute of Takahashi’s program Yuzru seemed so much faster in the first minute, like he was flying. If you think Yuzru lost his speed before he started, then Takahashi left his speed at home. Then during the last minute Yuzru slowed down and I agree he looked so sick and fragile, but still he maintained the same speed as Takahashi in the last ChSt.

I agree with Riemann that Yuzru did lose speed in the last minute of LP, but that was because he had more speed to start with, which made his slowing down more visible. Takahashi, Kozuka, Mura, Oda, and many other skaters did not even start with Yuzru’s speed.
 

Leonardo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Takahashi definitely won this event from my perspective. He vastly outskated Hanyu in the LP and made just a small mistake in the SP. I don't think his SP Quad deserved that < call and Hanyu was gifted in the LP both on PCS and GOE (especially for those shaky quads, which should have been -2 on the first and -3 on the second).

Agreed. Dai skated 2 great programs and his LP was brilliant. The worst thing is: the judges in general gave dai great pcs and goes in the sp and the lp, he really lost because of the technical specialist/controller. There's no way he could win with all those < and e calls , low levels on spins and EVEN on step sequences (he didn't get level 4) or the -1p for the feather coming down of his costume. That was very weird.
 
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lakeside

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
The worst thing is: the judges in general gave dai great pcs and goes in the sp and the lp, he really lost because of the technical specialist/controller. There's no way he could win with all those < and e calls , low levels on spins and EVEN on step sequences (he didn't get level 4) or the -1p for the feather coming down of his costume. That was very weird.
I don’t think it’s weird. Takahashi got UR calls at every event this season. He got level 3 step sequences at 3 out of the 4 events this season. If he only gets UR call and level 3 step sequence at one event this season, then it would be weird. However, if someone consistently gets UR calls and level 3s then it’s not weird at all.

And what about Hanyu's 3A+3T? Was his 3T fully rotated? And 2.20 GOE for that? I know his entry is crazy, and his Axel usually is so powerful, but this time it wasn't.
You made me curious and I went to study Yuzru’s 3A3T to see if that 3T was fully rotated. Then I found it was as rotated as the 3T of Takahashi’s 3Lz3T in the SP. If the judges thought Takahashi’s 3T was fully rotated, then they had to think Yuzru’s 3T fully rotated too. Otherwise the judges would be biased.

Plus, since Takahashi got + GOE on 3Lz3T even with the flutz, I think the judges are in general lenient on GOEs at this competition. So by that standard, Yuzru’s +2.2 GOE on 3A3T was very correct. Btw, if you really wonder which jump was under-rotated maybe you should look at Takahashi’s 3A in the SP.
 

itoja

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Can you just give the straight answer, was Hanyu's 3T in the 3A3T UR? I'm not interested with "as rotated as...". You may show us one of your famous landing photos.
 

FTnoona

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2009
Agreed. Dai skated 2 great programs and his LP was brilliant. The worst thing is: the judges in general gave dai great pcs and goes in the sp and the lp, he really lost because of the technical specialist/controller. There's no way he could win with all those < and e calls , low levels on spins and EVEN on step sequences (he didn't get level 4) or the -1p for the feather coming down of his costume. That was very weird.

The -1 for a piece of costume falling off is normal deduction though. It was just unfortunate that a piece of his costume fell off.
 

Riemann

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Takahashi definitely won this event from my perspective. He vastly outskated Hanyu in the LP and made just a small mistake in the SP. I don't think his SP Quad deserved that < call and Hanyu was gifted in the LP both on PCS and GOE (especially for those shaky quads, which should have been -2 on the first and -3 on the second).

I think the calls in the SP were likely correct (though quite strict), and I think Hanyu's win makes sense, but Dai's FS was very strong, so I can see some room for disagreement with the overall outcome
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Im away for the Holidays but
one of my biggest Christmas wish my prince Yuzuru winning Nationals , wow
 

lakeside

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Can you just give the straight answer, was Hanyu's 3T in the 3A3T UR? I'm not interested with "as rotated as...". You may show us one of your famous landing photos.
In my opinion, both Takahashi’s 3T in the 3Lz3T in the SP and Yuzru’s 3T in the 3A3T were on the verge of UR. Such jumps could raise a question for the tech panel. A strict panel would call them < and a lenient panel would not call them. Since the tech caller didn’t call them, I said this panel at Japanese Nationals was not too strict. Because Takahashi’s 3T and Yuzru’s 3T were in the same situation, if the tech caller called one 3T < but did not call the other one then it would not be fair. But since they did not call on either one, I think the calling was fair in this case.

OTOH, Takahashi’s 3A in the SP was definitely URed, no question about that, but it was not called and he got +1.43 GOE. His 3A2T2Lo< could have been 3A<2T<2Lo<, but the 3A and 2T were not called and he got +1 GOE. His 3Lz in the LP was also a flutz but was not called and got +1.26 GOE.

Since the judges did not call any of these jumps UR and e, I’ll just let it be and I don’t want to argue about them in this thread.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
FWIW: If the technical controller does not call it UR, then the judges would have no reason to mark down Hanyu's GOE. The judges do not give or takeaway GOE based on "perception of UR" but rather based on the recommendations of the technical panel. (I do not think it was UR, IMO).

Here's the guidelines for determining +GOE. They state you should give +1 for fufilling 2 of these guidelines; +2 for fufilling 4 of these guidlines and +3 for six of those guidelines. If the tech controller calls the jump UR, judges are recommend to take out -1 or -2 GOE. However, that was not the case. So with that in mind:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

Most of the judges gave +2 with two judges giving +3 (one judge gave +1) . But the majority of the judges felt he fulfilled at least 4 of the bullets.

Here's Yuzuru's program's at the point of that 3A-3T: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpB5jaiA27s#t=02m58s

I'd say, that he definitely got bullet point 1,2, 7 and 8. (Difficult entry, steps, effortless and elements matched to the music.). The ones who gave +3 could make a case for point 3, 4 or 6 as well, though I think it could go either way. Point is, perhaps the combo is not the best he could do that, but GOE doesn't judge based on comparisons to the skater best attempt, but whether, in general, the jump as done that day, fulfills the requirements.

I'd say +2 is reasonable. I think the guys that gave +3 were a bit GOE happy.
 
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lakeside

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
I see, no straight answer from you. No surprise :popcorn:
I gave you a straightforward answer, as well as detailed analysis of the whole tech calling thing. Do you want the judges to call all jumps in question? Then by your logic Takahashi would get 4T<, 3A<, and 3Lz (e) 3T< in the SP. He would also get 4T<2T, 3A<2T<2Lo<, and 3Lz (e) 3T in the LP. Kozuka would get 4T< and 3A< in the SP and a bunch of URs in the LP. Yuzru would get 3A3T< in the LP. I haven’t studied the rest of the men, but I’m sure everyone would get some < and e marks. Then you would just make the Japanese Nationals the most strict competition. :slink:

I’m a supporter of strict UR calling, so I wouldn’t mind if all the obviously URed jumps and not obvious jumps with question marks were both called <. But I saw many posters already think the Japanese tech panel is strict now and they don’t want more strict calling, which is why I didn’t point out the various URs if you had not asked me.

The ones who gave +3 could make a case for point 3, 4 or 6 as well, though I think it could go either way.
I think that 3A got bullet point 3 because it had delay in rotation. I notice that Yuzru always rotates slower at first on the ascent of the jump and then near the peak he becomes faster and quickly finishes the rotation. His 3A is different from most other skaters who immediately begin rapid rotation.
 
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OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
... I compared the beginnings of Yuzru and Takahashi’s programs. After watching the first minute of Takahashi’s program Yuzru seemed so much faster in the first minute, like he was flying. If you think Yuzru lost his speed before he started, then Takahashi left his speed at home. Then during the last minute Yuzru slowed down and I agree he looked so sick and fragile, but still he maintained the same speed as Takahashi in the last ChSt.

I agree with Riemann that Yuzru did lose speed in the last minute of LP, but that was because he had more speed to start with, which made his slowing down more visible. Takahashi, Kozuka, Mura, Oda, and many other skaters did not even start with Yuzru’s speed.

That is the problem, you are not looking at the program as a whole, and one shouldn't judge things like speed to relative to another competitor when they are performing to completely different programs, different music and choreography.

Look at his FS program again and break up the the music cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpB5jaiA27s

* Intro pace 1 (51sec) Started slow, graceful as if introduce the audience a classic european tale of some kind at a land far far away.
- Enriched further with layers instrumental to suggest this is going to be an emotional epic tale with aspect of Gothic romance, possible tragedy that require similar interpretation from ease growing to something more dramatic as the pace picks up..

* 1min 29sec Key dramatic change noted by the loud drum toll, lush strings to heighten the dramatics motif of the music presenting this adventure tale possibly leading to some sort of tragic romance of uncertainty.

* 2min08 Change of pace in + percussion instrumentals suggest the dooming dark part of the story heading towards a thrilling ride, this should increase with greater varied and sure footed dramatic foot sequence with haunted feel with real risks on the line; think of a matter of life and death (the foot step should follow this but did not).

* 2min46 Music quieten down to some self reflective mood, part of an internal dialogue about questions, regrets, pent up unresolved feelings. This is when Hanyu should able to skate with winding down ease and finesse to convey these nuanced feelings about self doubts, and questions beyond one self before settling down to the conclusion part with the 3lutz.

* However, the most critical part of the whole program should REALLY be about building everything to a soaring dramatic finish at 4min21, where the crowning glory moment of the whole program. The music implies he should skate with complete freedom and abandonment as Hunch Back grew to accept himself completely, spiritual freedom and awakening not limited by any superficial physical impediment (Actually Hanyu should understand this well, perhaps that was why David Wilson picked this for him.) - his reason of being, being excellent and just be graceful peaceful being himself. This is when he should speed FAST, at ease and smoothly the most, big strokes, deep edges. Unfortunately, this crowning emotional height of the program was not delivered, and ends up being the least emotional invested part of the performance and least powered, which was why the program feel insincere and jarring. Or to summarize, a bit of a 'meh'!

Compare this to his Romeo and Juliet last year, this is COP skating, cold and calculating. It wins scores, but not my heart. I actually think this program at the right hands could be something special. The music cut is just as ambitious in scale as his Romeo and Juliet, but I do wonder if some of the directions has been lost in translation. It certainly makes me appreciate other skaters like Yuna and Jeremy who can fully embrace Wilson's choreography, full of busy transitions as well and tap into the emotional aspect of the music to flesh out the choreography fully to the audience with meaning and purpose.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I’m a supporter of strict UR calling, so I wouldn’t mind if all the obviously URed jumps and not obvious jumps with question marks were both called <. But I saw many posters already think the Japanese tech panel is strict now and they don’t want more strict calling, which is why I didn’t point out the various URs if you had not asked me.

Here is what I think about that.

In every sport there comes a time when you have to "let the players play." In sports like basketball and hockey, the referee could blow the whistle on every block, charge, or hit. This would be in accordance with the rule book, but it would change the game from a sport to a day in law school class. In particular, the fans would hate it.

I think figure skating is like that, too. Let the skaters skate. Otherwise, only statisticians and parliamentarians will care enough about the sport to watch.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Here is what I think about that.

In every sport there comes a time when you have to "let the players play." In sports like basketball and hockey, the referee could blow the whistle on every block, charge, or hit. This would be in accordance with the rule book, but it would change the game from a sport to a day in law school class. In particular, the fans would hate it.

I think figure skating is like that, too. Let the skaters skate. Otherwise, only statisticians and parliamentarians will care enough about the sport to watch.

Great point, MM. Ultimately judges/tech folks are human and sometimes people will be unhappy with the calls (Seattle Seahawks fans are still bitter with the calls of 2006 Super Bowl; though it looks like they might have another shot this year :biggrin:) but in the end, you just have to make the call the best you can and if that call is made unfavorably towards you, you learn from it and you figure out how you do things so there isn't even a shadow of a doubt.
 

Elsa G

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
For this performance, I'd say he maxed out 84% tech, 64% artistry. He isn't just focus on the tech but seems to focus on his pacing as while visibly clenched not letting himself go, and was slower by his standard.


For your information,he said in an interview after Free skate,he thought he only maxed out 50% ability in this free skate and no more than 80% this season so far.
 

pitterpatter

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
os168, I think what you described mainly falls under INT. Yes, it doesn't match up to R&J from last season, but Dai's FS doesn't come close to Blues for Klook from last season either, so you can't really compare things that way. While Dai made the most of his program, I wouldn't rate the choreo, the transitions, and his SS significantly better than Yuzuru, so you still have to give credit where credit is due. Dai's performance was excellent and the larger PCS gap (compared to GPF) reflected that, but you can't throw everything else out the door. For the tech calls, I agree with Mrs. P and really don't think they were purposely holding Dai down. There were some close calls, and some went in Dai's favour and some didn't. The judges were GOE happy with both of them, with Dai scoring 17 pts in that area and Yuzuru scoring 10. All in all, I thought Yuzuru did win fairly. You can argue for one more point here and one less point there, but those observations are bound to come up in a close competition, and could be made on either side.
 

Riemann

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Os168, you make a good argument about the music, but I think the cold, calculating, "COP skating" approach has been demonstrated to be quite effective in terms of winning comps, so don't expect it to change anytime soon. The Orser method of leaving no points on the table (which we saw with Yuna as well) gets the job done.
 
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OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
os168, I think what you described mainly falls under INT. Yes, it doesn't match up to R&J from last season, but Dai's FS doesn't come close to Blues for Klook from last season either, so you can't really compare things that way. While Dai made the most of his program, I wouldn't rate the choreo, the transitions, and his SS significantly better than Yuzuru, so you still have to give credit where credit is due. Dai's performance was excellent and the larger PCS gap (compared to GPF) reflected that, but you can't throw everything else out the door. For the tech calls, I agree with Mrs. P and really don't think they were purposely holding Dai down. There were some close calls, and some went in Dai's favour and some didn't. The judges were GOE happy with both of them, with Dai scoring 17 pts in that area and Yuzuru scoring 10. All in all, I thought Yuzuru did win fairly. You can argue for one more point here and one less point there, but those observations are bound to come up in a close competition, and could be made on either side.

See that is my problem with the COP, how can someone's inability to interpret music correctly not also affect overall mark for Choreography, PE more severely also? Alot of these overlap, are entirely interdependent with each other, and they should not carry the same weigh in performance art competitions. Otherwise it is like saying a Pianist at a Tchaikovsky competition deserve to win just in because he score well in techniques, shows great improvements, has elite education from a good background, good teacher with great reputation, good onstage presence, did 80% he set out to do which is good enough because he is playing a well regarded piece of music but only slightly weak interpretation. His overall quality put him ahead despite his one small mistakes. Except in this case interpretation certainly affect everything else in performance and carry far weight than other identified component and also beyond these components, including reading comprehensions therefore credibility of his entire performance/execution/choreography not adequately delivered by his SS etc. Also in a real performance art competition, the rare near perfection should weigh a lot more than an imperfect uninspired but well regarded performance. That is what COP failed and it is also entirely lob sided. It is the equivalent of a system designer who knows nothing about skating but and decide to reward all triple jumps the same value, when they clearly should not be the same.

Bear in mind though, I do think Hanyu is still capable of delivering the potential program if he put more care, thoughts and heart into it like R & J. Otherwise I wouldn't have put it as one of my Christmas List wishes, for him to break Patrick's FS record. Based on what I can see, he is far from that potential at the moment.

I disagree about Yuna, sure she did accomplish some of the best COP scoring ever in terms of scoring, but at her best, it doesnt' feel anything like cold and calculated. Sure every performer have their off days (including Dai and Hanyu) and it is impossible to be at 100% all the time, but at her best, she took these performance to something transcend the COP system, or any system and made them stunning and unforgettable, which is why judges and more importantly the world wide audience/press/media/knowledgeable industry veterans responded. Just watch her Danse Macabre, Lark Ascending, Gershwin, Bond, Tango De Roxanne and tells me it is only due to the COP? Hanyu has shown he is fully capable of that last year (which is what makes me like him so much) but at this particular performance compare to what Dai did, he was lucky his SP gap was big enough (that bit is a bit like Yuna ;)).

And welll.... What a funny latest statement from Hanyu to imply he only maxed out 50% ability in this free skate and no more than 80% this season so far. It kind of suggest I was right more than I am not? I am not sure why he said what he said. By admitting this, he admit he wasn't best today (so how does that justify the high PCS, GOE etc? Should that knock 50% marks off? Judges overmarked him by 49% at least? lol... how do the fans respond to that now? :sarcasm: ). Poor Daisuke ... your 100% best just got knocked by 50% best from Hanyu because you are no longer as well liked. Hmm.... yeah it stinks!! If he didn't look so ill, I'd be even tough on him today. Hope he improves at worlds, he seriously need to turn up the fire to justify these scores. Otherwise I'd hate to lump him into the exclusive group of over marked Japanese skaters with strong federation support.
 
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StellaCampo

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Hi, everyone and merry christmas.
I am in awe of os168's lucidity and evocative use of language!!
I have to sit down and follow his points with the video to fully appreciate it.
Thank you for a wonderful christmas present!!
 
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