Quality vs. Quantity? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Quality vs. Quantity?

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
No, the purpose is to measure exactly what the skater did on the ice within the parameters allowed.

Yes, and the program with no 3-jump combination was in the parameters allowed.

Almost nobody ever skates a program perfectly. Competitors need to be rewarded for what they in fact did on the ice, not what they COULD do or what they sometimes have done in the past.

Which brings us right back to the point - CoP does NOT currently reward difficulty as it should (nor quality, in terms of mistakes on elements). It rewards quantity moreso. How much "busy work" can you cram into your program without losing focus? While that is certainly something which is measurable, for the most part, it's not always a valid assessment of which skater actually gave a better performance, athletically or otherwise. It's also not a good basis for a sport or art that many people really care about.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Yes, and the program with no 3-jump combination was in the parameters allowed.

The program with no 3-jump combo did not optimize all the parameters allowed. Just like a given test with 5 questions, one student answered 4, went over all the answers again and again, rewrite all the answers again and again until it was perfect. The other student was a bit sloppier but finished all 5 questions. Should one student with better writing on the first 4 questions get more points than the one who answered all 5 questions. Let say the first 4 questions are harder than the last questions, and the student perfected all 4 questions. The other did all 5, got partial credit for one of the first 4, but did question #5 perfectly. So, student A arguably did harder test? No, no right minded school/teacher/professor would give student A more points.

Doing 4 problems is certainly was in the parameters allowed.

Again, your logic is not sound. You continue to conflate two very different issues.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think Blades of Passion's point is this. If you look at the two jump layouts in post 31, the set if jumps actually completed by the first skater is harder than the set of jumps actually completed by the second skater. Therefore the first set of jumps should receive a higher base value than the second. But it doesn't.

Now here is a separate question. Could the first skater have scored even higher by doing another combination or something? Is the first skater adopting a smart CoP strategy or a dumb one? Should the first skater put in more transitions before her triple loop in order to get more points? Those are all interesting questions, but different from the issue that BoP is raising.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
The program with no 3-jump combo did not optimize all the parameters allowed.

Again, your logic is not sound. You continue to conflate two very different issues.

You're still not seeing it.

When it comes to jumps, the "parameters allowed" are far higher than anyone can ever achieve. The potential is out there for someone to do 7 Quads in their program and, as of right now, every skater in our known existence if falling woefully short of that level. Shame on them!

No, skaters need to be rewarded for what they actually do. It doesn't necessarily matter if they leave out combinations, or downgrade jumps, or fall. How often does anyone ever skate absolutely "perfect" anyway? Pretty much never. Competitors are almost always losing points on one thing or another. Everything is relative and it's all about getting the most points in a competition.

The problem arises when the points awarded are incorrect. Which is the case with CoP right now, especially in the women's competition. Lower level of difficulty is actually REWARDED, such as 2Axel+3Toe combinations being better for gaining points than a Triple-Triple, since putting a 3Toe with 2Axel gives that easier jump a higher +GOE potential, whereas putting a 3Toe on the end of another triple, which is HARDER, doesn't given you any extra benefit.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
gkelly said:
Or look at it another way, under a 6.0 mindset.

Lesley can do all the triple jumps, including triple axel, but she needs a lot of time to set them up and she also has a lot of non-jump skills she wants to demonstrate during the program. She decides to do one 3A, one 3Lz, and one 3F, and then several double jumps, including 2A, 2T, 2S, and 2Lo, in combinations or sequences with each other or with intricate steps, and a delayed 1A.

Susie can do triple toe with ease, triple salchow fairly consistently, and can usually squeak out a triple loop. She chooses to do a 2Lz+3T, 3T, 3S, 3S+2Lo, 3Lo, 2A+2T+2Lo, and 2F. If there are no limits on the number of jump passes she might throw in another double or two...

If Lesley ends up losing to Susie, it's easy to see what her strategy should be: add another easy triple or two.

What an interesting example! To me, Leslie clobbered Suzie under any judging system. Let's say Leslie does 3A, 3Lz, 3F, 2A+2T+2Lo, 2S+2T, 2Lo+2Lo, 1A (delayed). She deserves bonus points for thumbing her nose at the judges. "Of course I could do a triple toe and grab a few more points, but that's not me. I showed you what I can do when I did a triple Axel, triple Lutz, and triple flip. Then I expressed my artistic soul by doing a delayed single Axel with my last pass.

"Suzie? Pul-lease!"

Suzie won, 33.9 to 33.5. ;)
 
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prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
gkelly's Lesley/Suzie example, and BoP's explanatory posts, really do show the faults of the CoP.

To answer the original question, there really should be a balance between Quality and Quantity, as well as Difficulty and Variety. They are all different ways to measure someone's figure skating performance - and as the saying goes, the sum (of the balance) is worth more than the individual parts.

I also agree that Lesley should win. But what if she decided to do a 3A, and two 3Lz's and then did the rest of the program as stated? It's not as good as doing 3A 3Lz 3Lo with the double jumps...in my opinion...but again, the CoP would reward the former example more.
 
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