- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
PS. This is why people used to like to watch figure skating back in the 1990s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFurTW8OHxM#t=1m3sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFurTW8OHxM#t=1m3sec
Yes. They were talking about her from Skate Canada, 2012. LOL I didn't hear much chatter about her on the forums before that.I don't agree. People have been talking about Osmond long before she went to the Canadian Championships this year.
Eh..."great performers"? For me, personally, the last captivating Canadian Ladies singles skater was Josee Chouinard. That's going wayyyy back. I can't believe it's been like, 20 years since I saw her skating (on TV).Secondly, I'd argue Canada has produced some fairly decent female skaters who can perform - even Phaneuf was a great performer - just not a great jumper.
Hah. Aesthetically, I agree. But--we have to respect the athletic aspect, too. Although I might be able to name one mod who potentially would consider the Rembrandt elevated for having a Disney doodle drawn next to it...A triple Axel possesses a certain gravitas, even a majesty. Pimping it out with frivolous adornments diminishes the artistic and athletic statement that the element makes in isolation.
And please don't tack on a double toe-loop. That's like drawing a little Mickey Mouse in the corner of a Rembrandt.
I still don't see how these suggest in any way that Kaetlyn could realistically close the PCS gap with Yuna. Last year Kostner had a fantastic season and at Worlds she averaged in the low 8's for PCS--the highest all year. The previous season Miki Ando likewise had a fantastic season and built up momentum, and her PCS peaked at around 8 at Worlds. These were veterans who had built up a reputation over many years--Miki was herself a previous World Champion.
If these veteran heavy weights could not touch Yuna's PCS ceiling of 9 in their very best season, how can an utter neophyte--even of Kaetlyn's caliber--get that high? And your example of Tara Lipinski does not quite work. Yuna to Kaetlyn is not Michelle to Tara. Kaetlyn's jumps and combinations are hardly superior to Yuna. She Flutzes, does no combo harder than a 3T/3T and likewise cannot do the loop. Tara was a jumping bean who truly out-jumped Michelle. The same cannot be said of Kaetlyn. The most you can argue is that her choreography and transitions are superior, but these alone cannot close the PCS gap especially when reputation is taken into account.
Since when were components measured against each individual skater's potential? Isn't it supposed to be a kind of distribution, where 5 is "average" for a senior lady? That is at least what the ISU guides suggest. If so, then the right comparison is not what Yuna herself is potentially capable of, but what senior ladies these days are actually doing with respect to transitions. Considering the dearth of complex, intricate or difficult transitions even among the top ladies, giving Yuna 6.5 or less for transitions in her free program is hardly just. How many of them even attempt both the Lutz and the Flip and do any kind of preceding moves to these jumps?
I agree with you that the concept of uncertainty looms rather large in skating. Of course, if one takes this too much to heart, a la Wittgenstein ("Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent"), one might be in danger of relocating to the Norwegian countryside and not speaking for six months. Commenting on future figure skating events would, of course, be out of the question. (Volleying the ball back into Mathman's rhetorical court, this would not be my preferred approach to figure skating commentary ).Exactly. The issue for me is that we lack comparable data points for Yuna and Kaetlyn. It's been made clear to me that it's really difficult to compare across competitions. But forget that, if you do careful data analysis of the entire field and probabilities it's pretty apparent to me you can't definitely say she will medal or not.
To be fair, however, Nate Silver sadly incorrectly guessed that the Seattle Seahawks would be going to the Super Bowl. :sad: (Though I'm thrilled that it's a Harbaurgh Bros. Super Bowl; their father, Jack, was a football coach at my alma mater).
Likewise Kaetlyn can prove us wrong and shake up our Nate Silver predictions (that's why March Madness, for example, is so thrilling!).
That said, I have no problem with enthusiasm!
Yes. They were talking about her from Skate Canada, 2012. LOL I didn't hear much chatter about her on the forums before that.
In fairness, people did comment on her at Nationals 2012 (where she won the SP, beating out LaCoste and Phaneuf) and after Nebelhorn (where she outright won). But I don't really see how the initial point is germane to this discussion.
PS. This is why people used to like to watch figure skating back in the 1990s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFurTW8OHxM#t=1m3sec
Indeed I remember those comments from last year's Canadian nationals/Nebelhorn, but I don't think it takes away from your point IP RE: standing out as a Canadian lady.
I think she would stand out anywhere, not just in Canada. You place her at the most recent Japanese Nationals, her performance skills will still make her stand out even though some of the girls there have harder jumps.
We all wish for parts of the past - it's natural... I wish Scott was still skating.. Browning still had hair...Mathman, I know this may be a futile effort on my part but I have to say it. At some point, you are just going to have to stop lamenting about the past and move on. The world has changed, so is this sport. The days when skaters can get by with just jumps and a fairly empty program by posing and rolling on ice to pass for "artistry" are long gone.
Haha!Mathman, I know this may be a futile effort on my part but I have to say it. At some point, you are just going to have to stop lamenting about the past and move on. The world has changed, so is this sport. The days when skaters can get by with just jumps and a fairly empty program by posing and rolling on ice to pass for "artistry" are long gone.
That I don't dispute. But I think IPs point is she REALLY shines even more because she's first Canadian lady since Joannie to have the goods. Again if she competing while Joannie was competing, would she be getting the same amount of buzz?
Why not? Because that's how Patrick Chan rose to prominence while Jeff Buttle was the #1 guy in Canada, the reigning Olympic Bronze medalist at the time. People were buzzing about Chan in the 2007-08 season more than Buttle. So much that, even Kurt Browning was quoted saying he wasn't sure if the hype is real or not. It was not until the next year that Kurt confessed that he became a believer. In that season, Chan beat Buttle at the Canadian Nationals for the title even though Buttle went on to win the Worlds that year.
You have a point, but I still maintain that Kaetlyn has some buzz momentum by standing out so clearly from the Canadian ladies. Never hurts to be Canadian No. 1 by a mile. (Or any No. 1 for that matter).
To be fair, however, Nate Silver sadly incorrectly guessed that the Seattle Seahawks would be going to the Super Bowl. :sad:
I agree with you that the concept of uncertainty looms rather large in skating. Of course, if one takes this too much to heart, a la Wittgenstein ("Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent"), one might be in danger of relocating to the Norwegian countryside and not speaking for six months. Commenting on future figure skating events would, of course, be out of the question. (Volleying the ball back into Mathman's rhetorical court, this would not be my preferred approach to figure skating commentary ).
On the one hand, I understand that pushing somewhat beyond the bounds of the (strictly) factually supportable can be a good thing, that there is a role for being "provocative" and a gadfly in stimulating discussions. On the other hand, there is the danger that controversy is pursued for controversy's sake, and it becomes a kind of empty intellectual baiting (a form of mental master baiting, in fine )
Mathman, I know this may be a futile effort on my part but I have to say it. At some point, you are just going to have to stop lamenting about the past and move on. The world has changed, so is this sport. The days when skaters can get by with just jumps and a fairly empty program by posing and rolling on ice to pass for "artistry" are long gone.