2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP | Page 29 | Golden Skate

2013 US Nationals Senior Ladies LP

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I made the following spread sheet which keeps the TES and SP scores as is and adds in the best ISU PCS the ladies got this year...

:rock: :bow:

So the only one that wuzrobbed, IMO, would be Christina....

I don't think so. Her performance at Skate America was better than her performance at Nationals, IMO. The PCS for her Nationals performance should not match her marks from Skate America.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
But Ashley didn't get any downgrade calls on her two falls. And her GOE on the first 3F combo is quite dubious.
 

figuristka

Medalist
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Have the US women always worn so much sparkles at Nationals? I have watched the US Nationals before but don't remember one after another having so many sparkles on their dresses. Personally i think it looks overdone. The men were far more unique all having different styles and moves. One skater that always sparkles from inside out ( don't mean the dress this time) is Ashley Wagner, even with the mistakes she has this presence on ice, like she commands you to watch. In a way she is similar to Kaetlyn Osmond who grabs your attention. Gracie Gold is amazing. I think she can improve artistically in the way she relates to the audience etc but she had World Champion jumps. Felt sorry for Mirai , hope she comes back strong next year. Enjoyed watch Christina Gao alot more than the 3rd and 4th place winners.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
If Ashley got the downgrades, conceivably Gracie wins. And Gracie with a flawed program at CoR as her highest international PCS would perhaps have gotten a point or two more for her US Nats program, even more so if the program was skated at SkAm than CoR
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
But Ashley didn't get any downgrade calls on her two falls. And her GOE on the first 3F combo is quite dubious.

So who do you feel should have won? You have been down on Gracie for having too high PCS, Ashley for winning with a flawed program. So who should have won?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Of course, singling an axel in the short program is arguably more brutal than "somewhat double footing a jump." I'd argue that it's almost two errors.

Singling the axel in the SP is a loss of an extra .6 points in comparison to singling the axel in the LP (because of mandatory -3 GOE). It's not THAT much more of an extra deduction.

Ashley left an entire 2Axel out of her LP because of the fall on the 3Loop that it was supposed to be in sequence with. She lost 2.9 points there in base value. Singling the axel in the SP is essentially a point loss of 2.8 in base value. So those two mistakes are very comparable.

Ashley double-footing the Salchow is definitely a smaller deduction, I supposed it should be counted as "half" a mistake. However, Ashley actually also slightly double-footed her second 3Flip. She also definitely underrotated her last 2Toe on the opening jump combination (but wasn't called for it). So...combine all those little things together and we can count it as a "full" mistake.

2 mistakes for Gracie, 6 for Ashley.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Have the US women always worn so much sparkles at Nationals? I have watched the US Nationals before but don't remember one after another having so many sparkles on their dresses. Personally i think it looks overdone. The men were far more unique all having different styles and moves. One skater that always sparkles from inside out ( don't mean the dress this time) is Ashley Wagner, even with the mistakes she has this presence on ice, like she commands you to watch. In a way she is similar to Kaetlyn Osmond who grabs your attention. Gracie Gold is amazing. I think she can improve artistically in the way she relates to the audience etc but she had World Champion jumps. Felt sorry for Mirai , hope she comes back strong next year. Enjoyed watch Christina Gao alot more than the 3rd and 4th place winners.
um, yes sparkles have always been key

I think the reason they are more noticable is because of the picture quality and the high saturation they use to shoot the dang thing. Everything is more bright and vibrant. Even 10 years ago "film" was much different, more muted.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
For those who blame COP for Gracie finishing behind Ashley, would Gracie be contending for a medal under 6.0, coming into FS with a 9th SP placement?

Let me try that again. Scoring under 6.0 rules, let's suppose the placements in the SP to be the same. In the LP, Ashley lands three triple jumps, falling twice. Under 6.0 falling was more heavily penalized, and even a "minor error" like two-footed landing on the flip meant that the jump was not "ratified." Ashley ranks behind Hicks (a 6-triple performance with a 3F+3T), and behind Gao (6 clean triples -- her only mistake was on a spin, which was no so important in 6.0), And possibly behind Siraj (6 triples in a fine program) and Cesario (6 triples in a fine program).

Let's put Ashley fifth. Then with factored placement we have:

1. Hicks 8
2. Gold 11 (+tie-break)
3. Goa 11 (with 2nd tie-break)
4. Wagner 11

Tossing CoP, Courtney Hicks is the new champion, Courtney and Gracie go to worlds, Courtney, Gracie and Christina go to Four Cintinents, and Ashley and Jeremy Abbott begin preparing for next year. :yes:
 
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Dots

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2007
lol... anyone watching the new skating podcast? :popcorn: Sums up what everyone is saying about the ladies event.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
So who do you feel should have won? You have been down on Gracie for having too high PCS, Ashley for winning with a flawed program. So who should have won?

I would have Gracie at about 125 and Ashley at about 110.
Gracie would have won. One has nothing to do with the other.

If Courtney is less wild, I would have her above Ashley as well.
If Christina didn't mess up her spin in the SP, I would have her above Ashley as well.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Tossing CoP, Courtney Hicks is the new champion, Courtney and Gracie go to worlds, Courtney, Gracie and Christina go to Four Cintinents, and Ashley and Jeremy Abbott begin preparing for next year. :yes:

unless they apply the logic to the ladies like they did in 08 and split 4CC and Worlds assignments a little differently. I think Ashley would still get to go to worlds.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Courtney and Christina should have placed above that mess occupying third place.
US Nationals is a joke. It is probably the most corrupted event this year.
 

xabia

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Falls

Well, in gymnastics when the scores are in the 20 range these days, a fall is a one point deduction, and in skating when the points are in 200+ range, a fall is also a one point deduction. That tells the story. I'm fine with URs being heavily penalized, it's just that falls really aren't. I actually feel like 5 points deduction for a fall is about right.

You make a good point. The comparison with gymnastics is a good one.
 

cheerio2

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
I totally agree also with noidont. That was a great point. In addition, I think most audiences do not want to just mindlessly take the judges' word about URs which they often can't see in real time over major errors that are obvious to the naked eye. If they truly want to be fair and transparent, they should use and make available to the public the slow motion of each skater's every jump online. If judges are going to allow UR calls/other nonvisible aspects to overcome major visible errors, they should provide the evidence.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Maybe a UR triple is really an added difficulty double and should be scored accordingly assume it is well done???
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Especially some of the extended pairs lifts that we saw over the weekend.



Factored placements turn out like this:

Ashley 5
Courtney Hicks 10
Gracie Gold 11
Christina Gao 13
Yasmin Siraj 16 (+tie-break)
Agnes Zawadski 16
Samantha Cesario 19
Mirai Nagasu 25
Angela Wang 26
Hannah Miller 28
Caroline Zhang 30

Actually FP should be SP X 0.5 + LP X 1
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Maybe a UR triple is really an added difficulty double and should be scored accordingly assume it is well done???

It is almost never well done. For one thing, as a double it is over-rotated, leading to an awkward landing at best.

Popping an intended triple into a double is OK, though, and could get positive GOE.

Actually FP should be SP X 0.5 + LP X 1

Oh. OK. Ashley 2.5, etc. :)
 

flying camel

Medalist
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
My take on Ashley's score, though, is that there are aspects of her skating that are superior to Gracie's at this point. There is a poise and maturity there that Gracie does not possess yet that rightly shows up in PCS. And Gracie's choreography is, although better than last year, still rather juniorish. Seriously, just because the music has a march beat does not mean you must pretend to march.

I so agree with you about that part of Gracie's program where she starts marching. What was her choreographer thinking? Her coaches really need to change that part of the choreography before worlds.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Not to be an idiot, but there is no rule against marching, and it does not score negative points, however silly.

Gracie is apparently being the child in the movie, who starts marching after the Nazi solders, until stopped by its dad.
 

Eislauf

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
My take on Ashley's score, though, is that there are aspects of her skating that are superior to Gracie's at this point. There is a poise and maturity there that Gracie does not possess yet that rightly shows up in PCS. And Gracie's choreography is, although better than last year, still rather juniorish. Seriously, just because the music has a march beat does not mean you must pretend to march.

I so agree with you about that part of Gracie's program where she starts marching. What was her choreographer thinking? Her coaches really need to change that part of the choreography before worlds.

Touché! That marching was jarringly unsophisticated. Marching is what wee little kids do when learning to skate:yes:

And - yes - Ashley's carriage, body and arm positions are balletic and polished - far better than Gracie's. While watching Gracie's LP, I immediately noticed how much she was flapping her long arms up and down.
 
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