2013 Europeans Ladies LP | Page 19 | Golden Skate

2013 Europeans Ladies LP

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
In what Fantasyland I wonder. Tukt got BV of 13 points higher and TES of 10 points higher. And, Dear, you should have known by now that I am a very demanding persona. Therefore you should bring something more original than "stupidity" argument to get engaged in conversation with let`s talk. :laugh:

My dear, you said "Russian babies" you mean Tukt? Tukt who fell apart in the SP? So by definition, Caro was miles ahead of Tukt in the SP? Let's talk about that.
you mean Adelina? Adelina who was only 2 points ahead?

None of them are any mile ahead, unfortunately.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Total TES

Carolina Kostner: 33.36 (short) + 60.24 (long) = 93.60
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva: 29.47 (short) + 70.02 (long) = 99.49
Adelina Sotnikova: 37.25 (short) + 62.39 (long) = 99.64

So, the question is - over these two programs, should Kostner's PCS be approximately eight points higher than Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva? This amounts to 0.75 higher per component (approximately). I believe the answer is yes, and could make an argument that in some aspects, it could be even higher.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total TES

Carolina Kostner: 33.36 (short) + 60.24 (long) = 93.60
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva: 29.47 (short) + 70.02 (long) = 99.49
Adelina Sotnikova: 37.25 (short) + 62.39 (long) = 99.64

So, the question is - over these two programs, should Kostner's PCS be approximately eight points higher than Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva? This amounts to 0.75 higher per component (approximately). I believe the answer is yes, and could make an argument that in some aspects, it could be even higher.

Noting that those 8 points spread between both SP and LP. Not just the LP.
I personally think for both SP and LP, her PCS should be at least 15 points ahead of Tukt and 10 points ahead of Sotn.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Noting that those 8 points spread between both SP and LP. Not just the LP.
I personally think for both SP and LP, her PCS should be at least 15 points ahead of Tukt and 10 points ahead of Sotn.

As we approach Sochi, that spread is inevitably going to narrow, assuming Liza and Adelina continue to mature and not implode next season. The Olympics are in Russia, after all.
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
I'd like to know where exactly jumps are being rewarded at all and where this season has any competition been won with respectable jump like 3/3 or lutz and flip and have a SP and LP with those things? NWR?

The jumps are rewarded in the TES. Which you can easily see if you open any protocol. But there's much more to figure skating than just jumps. Which is why we have PCS. Oh and there's spins and steps also, if you didn't notice. :p

the doubles didn't seem like accidents. watching it there is no hint of accident

I'm sorry but it is ridiculous to suggest they were planned. Especially given she has landed a very solid 3salchow in the warm-up.

I don't remember the second salchow but she has very clearly slipped on the take-off edge of the second one.

No, dear. It's more like Caro did better on maturity and edges but she was so many miles away from the TES ability of Russian babies that she could never come close to secure the gap.

She wasn't miles behind on the TES. She had the best step sequence of the competition and better spins than Sot and Tuk. So even with the mistakes on the jumps, she was definitely behind but not *that* far behind (and Sotnikova had mistakes on the jumps as well).

As far as PCS go, Kostner should be - and was - way, way in front of Tuk and Sot.

This is just it. Look how crazy flawless they have to be to beat Kostner. She can do two double salchows and no big deal. She wins. She almost won the FS with the double salchows. They have to flawless on jump content so superior to Kostner in every way. 3/3 flip and lutz and two jumping passes with all double jumps plus her third with the double axel! The TES in ladies goes way too far in giving steps and spins points and GOE.

Again: There is more to figure skating than jumps. There is more to figure skating than jumps. There is more to figure skating than jumps. Honestly...
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Why do you think that needs to be posted so many times in a row. I know that - it's blindingly obvious that for Mao and carolina they really don't need jumps at all. With their step and spin goe and pcs they can do mostly doubles or underrotated triples and even though there is more to skating than jumps do jumps have to be so irrelevent for them that Mao can do 4 triples over a sp and lp and Carolina can do 2 double salchows. Planned not planned whatever she almost won the fs with 2 double salchows anyway.
 

jiggs

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Why do you think that needs to be posted so many times in a row. I know that - it's blindingly obvious that for Mao and carolina they really don't need jumps at all. With their step and spin goe and pcs they can do mostly doubles or underrotated triples and even though there is more to skating than jumps do jumps have to be so irrelevent for them that Mao can do 4 triples over a sp and lp and Carolina can do 2 double salchows. Planned not planned whatever she almost won the fs with 2 double salchows anyway.

Why do YOU think that needs to be posted so many times in a row? You have been repeating yourself over and over again here.
She almost won the fs with 2 double salchows? So those salchows are the only thing you are focusing on? What about all the other things she did in her fs which were of exceptional quality?

But whatever, I am not even going to try to explain anything to you because other posters have already done that well and you seem to not even to respond to their posts/arguments because all you focus on is 2 double salchows :disapp:
 
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gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I am aware of all the arguments in favor of kostners win and people saying her win was too narrow and infac should have been a gigantic landslide basically unpaparalled in cop history. I am saying she does spins and steps well and did flip and lutz. That is what she did in tech and her pcs is good but her winning while basically doing easy -beyond easy - jumps for two jumping passes ruins all her pluses. Her skate at the end was so terrible. But she had racked up enough points already. Just like Mao did in the gp events and kostner did last year at worlds.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I was in the arena and Kostner was in a league of her own. The bolero might be slow and repetitive but her choreography creates some ambiance and is working realy well. Great costume too. She has insane edges and flow out and she sells every single jump. She skated in whole different level than the russian girls who had spunk and energy but skate like 16 year olds which is normal and rush into things. She looks the people and judges in the eyes, thats a sign of great experience. Especially in the first I think jumping pass that her landing was iffy she stretched and looked directly at us. I think she counted on her maturity and artistry and it worked. I also think since last year she goes one by one element, not rushing at all and it helps her having clean skates. Her jumps dont have a big height but cover lots of distance, and you can see her insane edges in the landings, I thought anyone else would have fallen. Even in her last sequence there is something not frantic about it even if the audience when crazy at the beginning when she stops and poses.

I liked Adelina better in sp than lp, I thought it had more choreo, but she was really good in her lp after the popped jump I thought she would melt down. Her jumps are big, she has very good stretch, great spins and the after the jumps were over she sold it. I liked her costume considering what her program was but the vocals were annoying.
Liza in the sp looked very anxious but even after the mistake she sold it, it is a program she has skated a lot. I still dont know why the ditched the other sp. But in the Lp she was a little fireball, her 2a-3t was the best, her lutz combo is better than most men and she had so much energy, she doesnt have the long lines of Adelina but for me she had more character in the program and she got a standing ovation like Carolina. It was an amazing performance. Marchei had a great sp but her lp costume and music plus the heavy make up were distacting for me, I didnt like it at all. Helgerson sisters, I always like Victoria, Joshi is too tall and akward. For the Giovani I had written before, Urmanov at the boards was the best thing! I saw all the ladies but I cant remember now more, I wanted so much Elena G to medal, Orser looked very disappointed in the sp.
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Liza s jumps are not small, thats funny statement. They cover ice double her size, especially her lutz Salchow and axel, big spring and distance, her Lp is on YouTube and the slow motion is helpful. Live are even more spectacular, she steps into them with assurance and her landings have transitions in almost all of them.

Actually Liza has very few transitions in and out of her jumps. Few of them have lifted leg above the hip level on the landing so that counts towards "difficult exit" but that's all.

The skater who have transitions this season are Ashley Wagner and Mao Asada followed by Yu-Na Kim. Haven't watched Osmond yet so I can't tell. Liza, Carolina, Adelina and Akiko have much fewer transitions.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Why do you think that needs to be posted so many times in a row. I know that - it's blindingly obvious that for Mao and carolina they really don't need jumps at all. With their step and spin goe and pcs they can do mostly doubles or underrotated triples and even though there is more to skating than jumps do jumps have to be so irrelevent for them that Mao can do 4 triples over a sp and lp and Carolina can do 2 double salchows. Planned not planned whatever she almost won the fs with 2 double salchows anyway.

Are you seriously accusing someone else of being repetitive?


.... seriously?
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
No, dear. The Russian babies beat her TES by a few points in the LP, adelina beat her by 2. So many miles away from the TES ability? Really? Talk about stupidity.



Mao has weaker jumps, skating skills, and performance skill. A weaker skater overall. I love Mao dearly, but this is wrong.

lutz, Caro >>> Mao
flip, Caro >> Mao
loop, Caro >> Mao (she can execute the loop with preceding steps, exit transitions effortlessly)
salchow, Caro >> Mao
toe, Caro >> mao (she can do 3T3T, 3F3T easily)

It's insane to think Mao is a better skater.

lol am i suppost to laugh right now, because what your suggesting is hilarious. it's not that long ago that i had to cringe or look else where everytime Carolina had to jump, resently she has improved, but that doesn't change much since she FAR most of her career was a mess when it comes to her jumps, even when she was succesful (2008 worlds remember) her jumps were inconsistent. and looking at her recent outing it seems that last years consistency has vanished too.... I could go on for hours, but i think i will stop here since I hope this gave a bit of a wake up call to your, imaginary Carolina who after 10 years of skating senior in senior ranks got succesful..........
 

Tanja90

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 28, 2009
lol am i suppost to laugh right now, because what your suggesting is hilarious. it's not that long ago that i had to cringe or look else where everytime Carolina had to jump, resently she has improved, but that doesn't change much since she FAR most of her career was a mess when it comes to her jumps, even when she was succesful (2008 worlds remember) her jumps were inconsistent. and looking at her recent outing it seems that last years consistency has vanished too.... I could go on for hours, but i think i will stop here since I hope this gave a bit of a wake up call to your, imaginary Carolina who after 10 years of skating senior in senior ranks got succesful..........

Carolina has been inconsistent on her jumps in the past but this doesn't mean that her jumps lacked quality. When landed they are great jumps with the highest quality. An this is a fact nowadays as when she was falling apart.
And it isn't true that the outing at euros proves that she is again an inconsistent skater! I would say that it proves the opposite. She was nervous as she said but in the short she sidn't give up after the fall and skated a great program and in the long she landed beautiful jumps including a lutz (if she were the carolina of the past she wouldn't have landed it in any way) and she skated the program of her life before having the salchows when she was really tired and couldn't do them...
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
My dear, you said "Russian babies" you mean Tukt? Tukt who fell apart in the SP? So by definition, Caro was miles ahead of Tukt in the SP? Let's talk about that.
you mean Adelina? Adelina who was only 2 points ahead?

None of them are any mile ahead, unfortunately.
Why unfortunately? Are you a Russian babies' fan? Then I have good news for you- Caro BV was in the second 10s of Russian Nationals. So yes, she is miles behind not Adelya and Liza only but a bunch of other R-babies. All the rest GOE tried to cover but couldn't cover the gap that huge- an embarrassing lead of R-babies in TES. All the rest was covered by PCS for the Green Queen.
I personally think for both SP and LP, her PCS should be at least 15 points ahead of Tukt and 10 points ahead of Sotn.
Here I actually agree with you. That less than a point "win" of WC over some Junior debutante is such an insult for the system. Give Caro more! :laugh:
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
She wasn't miles behind on the TES. She had the best step sequence of the competition and better spins than Sot and Tuk.
Caro spins and steps in both segments: SP- 2 spins of level 4 and 1 of level 3 plus steps of level 4; FP- same as in SP
Sotnikova's spins and steps in both segments: SP- 3 spins of level 4 pus steps of level 4; FP- same as in SP
Liza's spins and steps in both segments: SP- 2 spins of level 4 and 1 of level 3 plus steps of level 3; FP- same as in SP
So no huge advantage for Caro in TES of non-jump element at all. She is actually behind Sotnikova.
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Carolina has been inconsistent on her jumps in the past but this doesn't mean that her jumps lacked quality. When landed they are great jumps with the highest quality. An this is a fact nowadays as when she was falling apart.
And it isn't true that the outing at euros proves that she is again an inconsistent skater! I would say that it proves the opposite. She was nervous as she said but in the short she sidn't give up after the fall and skated a great program and in the long she landed beautiful jumps including a lutz (if she were the carolina of the past she wouldn't have landed it in any way) and she skated the program of her life before having the salchows when she was really tired and couldn't do them...

no one is denying the quality of Carolinas jumps she has right now. what's beeing said is that Carolina is and has been a VERY inconsistent skater, and her record perfectly showcases that. and with this I'm not talking about Euro's this year i'm talking about her whole career in general. it just seems that Carolinas recent success has made some people forget her past!
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Total TES

Carolina Kostner: 33.36 (short) + 60.24 (long) = 93.60
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva: 29.47 (short) + 70.02 (long) = 99.49
Adelina Sotnikova: 37.25 (short) + 62.39 (long) = 99.64

So, the question is - over these two programs, should Kostner's PCS be approximately eight points higher than Sotnikova and Tuktamisheva? This amounts to 0.75 higher per component (approximately). I believe the answer is yes, and could make an argument that in some aspects, it could be even higher.

A somewhat random thought, perhaps, that just struck me - does this mean that Liza has the qualifying FP TES for Men's Worlds? :) I think it's 65 or something? - I don't know what it is for the short - but I'm suddenly curious to know how many ladies actually do have the TES - for SP and/or FP? But I admit it is a random thought indeed - but, just for the fun of it. :) (Seeing how many men actually struggled - I think there are a lot of the Euros men who did not make the TES - well, at least not at the Euros LP, when I was paying attention to it a bit, as the commentators happened to mention it.)
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
If you (a general "you", I don't refer to anyone specifically) keep talking about Caro's 2Ss, I will start calling Adelina the "single flip Silver Medalist" and Liza the "double lutz Bronze Medalist"! ;) (Please, now, don't insult me, it's just a joke... :p)
 

figureskate

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
A somewhat random thought, perhaps, that just struck me - does this mean that Liza has the qualifying FP TES for Men's Worlds? :) I think it's 65 or something? - I don't know what it is for the short - but I'm suddenly curious to know how many ladies actually do have the TES - for SP and/or FP? But I admit it is a random thought indeed - but, just for the fun of it. :) (Seeing how many men actually struggled - I think there are a lot of the Euros men who did not make the TES - well, at least not at the Euros LP, when I was paying attention to it a bit, as the commentators happened to mention it.)

Just 5 men had a higher TES than Liza's at euros :love:
 
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