I feel sorry for Caroline Zhang | Page 2 | Golden Skate

I feel sorry for Caroline Zhang

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
The reason she - and others - have this bad technique (from my very nonexpert opinion) is due to the fact that after Michelle and Tara hit the scene and landed on top at young ages ALL little girls were pushed to excell early = forget technique, it's not important now that figures are gone. Now technique is important again, but the formidable years of their training gave them bad basics that when pressured they fall back on.

Caroline was slow as a novice and junior and a senior, and was rewarded for it early on, which gave no incentive to fix things. She's playing catch up, it's not fair in some ways, but that's what's happened to many skaters in this system.

ITA with this. The technique for rotating triples at 13 with a little girl's body is completely different than the technique needed for success as a woman. And you're right about Caroline being rewarded early on; she was dominant as a junior in 06-07 and had a fine season as a first year senior in 07-08.

I see someone like Julia L now, who jumps in the same way Caroline did, and I just know she is going to have the same problems as Zhang did.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
ITA with this. The technique for rotating triples at 13 with a little girl's body is completely different than the technique needed for success as a woman. And you're right about Caroline being rewarded early on; she was dominant as a junior in 06-07 and had a fine season as a first year senior in 07-08.

I see someone like Julia L now, who jumps in the same way Caroline did, and I just know she is going to have the same problems as Zhang did.

Thanks to you all for dealing with this issue for me. In this respect, referring back to the title of the thread, I do feel sorry for Caroline. It's accurate to say that she was doomed from her earliest years by incorrect or inadequate coaching. I'm sorry to hear that Julia L. shows some of Caroline's early faults, because that doesn't bode well for her in the future. It's a plain waste of talent.
 

Reginald

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
I think it says more about Alyssa's longevity than anything. Czisny was always hyped since 2004 as "she could be one of the best in the world if she just hit her jumps" but that was all talk and the potential was never realized for years. Then she kinda popped out of nowhere and has been hot/cold ever since. She's America's version of Carolina Kostner in that sense.

Czisny is a "late bloomer" and that's very unusual for an American skater, at least these days. It's typical for the American lady to be a flash in the pan, make a big splash and then disappear/vacate soon after (think Lipinski, Meissner), or to show potential but never realize it (think Nam, Nikodinov). It remains to be seen where CZhang fits into all this- as it stands, she's another one that got away- but on the upside, she is still rather young...young enough, anyway, to be in the mix for 2018 if she ever pulled a Czisny. As it stands now, though, she is out of it.

Unfortunately, Caroline's career is closer to Nam or Nikidinov's at this point, or Bebe Liang, or an underscored Alissa.

Is there any way that Caroline can finish top 3 at Nationals next year?
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Is there any way that Caroline can finish top 3 at Nationals next year?

If enough people bomb, and she gets rid of her bad habits on the ice, possibly... but without fixing what others have listed? I'd say chances are slim to none.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
ITA with this. The technique for rotating triples at 13 with a little girl's body is completely different than the technique needed for success as a woman. And you're right about Caroline being rewarded early on; she was dominant as a junior in 06-07 and had a fine season as a first year senior in 07-08.

I see someone like Julia L now, who jumps in the same way Caroline did, and I just know she is going to have the same problems as Zhang did.

I actually think Julia L has solid technique on her jumps (other than the 2A). She doesn't have the mule kick Caroline had. She does rely on her speed in the jumps in that she doesn't get great height but she is just over 5 feet tall so how much height she could expect to get is questionable.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Thanks to you all for dealing with this issue for me. In this respect, referring back to the title of the thread, I do feel sorry for Caroline. It's accurate to say that she was doomed from her earliest years by incorrect or inadequate coaching. I'm sorry to hear that Julia L. shows some of Caroline's early faults, because that doesn't bode well for her in the future. It's a plain waste of talent.

When it was announced that Zhang was moving up to the senior GP events when she was 14, I commented at the time that she had a lot of technical issues that should be dealt with before she moved up to seniors. I thought she should stay in Juniors and work on her jump technique and her basic skating and chuckie told me I was out of my mind. The girl scored hirer than Asada and Kim had as juniors and it would be a waste of time for her to spend another day in Juniors. When she made the GPF in her first season, she appeared to be headed to phenom status, and then she grew, and all of the bad technique chickens came home to roost.
 

b-man

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
After Caroline's short program scores came up, I heard lots of boo's from the audience.
And after her freeskate, the audience rose to their feet and applauded.

Somebody needs to tell those people about her rotations.
Check out the thread for the ladies SP in the US Nationals section. Starting on page 29, there are numerous GS posters who watched and rewached some of the UR and downgraded jumps and don't agree with the ruling. Many felt there should have been one UR, not multiple Ur's and a downgrade. I have heard that some of the judges for the SP programs disagreed with the tech controller on these calls, but the controllers decision stood.
 

PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
The USFSA is basically showing her the door and whether or not she chooses to use it is up to her. She's given me a number of wonderful programs and moments over the years and I'll always remember her for that.

Yes, Caroline has brought several houses down in her career.
And if the USFSA is showing her the door, they should also tell the audience to stop boo'ing the judges, and stay in their seats when she skates. :cool:
 

Sk8Boi

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I do not feel sorry for Caroline Zhang AT ALL.

She has had a long career in skating, travelled, competed, won medals, titles, fans and accolades. She has memories that will last forever and the benefits of a lifetime as a competitive athlete.

Just because it is close to being over is no reason to feel sorry for her. Sometimes, people grow up, and then they have to mature. It is no reason to be sorry.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
If enough people bomb, and she gets rid of her bad habits on the ice, possibly... but without fixing what others have listed? I'd say chances are slim to none.

Haven't these problems been evident to her for years? I don't see what would motivate her now to try to make these changes. And does she still have time? Figure skating is unforgiving to ladies past 20 or so. By the time she's fundamentally revamped her skating skills, will she still be able to compete at the elite level?
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
Haven't these problems been evident to her for years? I don't see what would motivate her now to try to make these changes. And does she still have time? Figure skating is unforgiving to ladies past 20 or so. By the time she's fundamentally revamped her skating skills, will she still be able to compete at the elite level?

I do think she has time, but she would have to be willing to put in a LOT of work and make her goal 2018 not 2014. Some people don't hit their peak in the sport until 24 or 25 anyway (Kostner and Czisny come to mind as recent examples). Of course, she'd also have to dodge injury. Really though I think it is up to her. Again, she would need to be willing to candidly assess what is wrong and devote most of the next 2 seasons to fixing it, accepting she's unlikely to be in serious medal contention during that time. While I hear you about the current nature of the sport, it isn't as if she is currently 24 or 25.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
DL and I both mentioned them back when Caroline was in Juniors. At the time, Nagasu had miles better technique as did Flatt (who skated Seniors the year they went 1-2 in Juniors at Nationals) as did Wagner (who was the forgotten 3rd behind these 2). I think Wagner used the lack of spotlight (almost girl) to look deep inside herself and make some fundamental changes based upon the feedback she was getting (over time) first moving from Mrs. Shirley Hughes to Prescilla Hill and finally to John Nicks/Phillip Mills. Nagasu seems to have rested on that glory somewhat and hasn't lived up to flashes of brilliance she showed by winning Juniors then Seniors back to back and then finishing 4th at the Olympics and has had some technique issues since becoming more adult like in her body structure. Flatt may be moving on but not without being Miss Consistent for several years when USFS needed it. The one thing that would motivate Caroline to finally fix these issues is that final shot at "glory" in this sport.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Caroline should fix her basic skating skills. All other things will fall in place. Go back to basic. I skate from time to time, but I don't really know how to improve my basic, actually. Maybe it's really hard otherwise everyone would have good basic skills.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
She was more screwed over last year. I wish she would have been placed 2nd at Nationals then and been on the World team for the first time.

This year she was screwed over in the SP with the way her combination jump got called and perhaps held down a bit in general, but she didn't deserve to place all that well anyway. Her performances were better last year and the field was stronger this year. What happened to that Layback spin?
 

jjane45

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Do we have any recent examples of someone dramatically improving their basic skating skills from poor to average or to good?
 

heyang

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
ITA with this. The technique for rotating triples at 13 with a little girl's body is completely different than the technique needed for success as a woman. And you're right about Caroline being rewarded early on; she was dominant as a junior in 06-07 and had a fine season as a first year senior in 07-08.

I see someone like Julia L now, who jumps in the same way Caroline did, and I just know she is going to have the same problems as Zhang did.

Also, 'figures' were pretty much eliminated. The practice of figures made skaters learn edge control. I don't think Caroline and others in her age group had to practice figures while MK and Tara did for at least a breif period. Figures is one of the reasons why there were few baby ballerina's before 1994.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Caroline did her best-she was happy. Clearly she should retire unless she has a lot of money and wants to go to nationals again. They let her know how she should think of the future-unforgiving is right-but reality. It is nice to see her skate, but I think she is very slow, very plodding. In another time, she'd be appreciated but judges did her a favor if she/family are pouring money down the drain. I liked her but even the pearl wasn't held out. I suspect the standing O was to thank her for trying so hard and she stayed on her feet. She went out with a good skate for her. Not sad at all. Mirai's reaction was sad. She had some great skates in the sun. It's done I think.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Haven't these problems been evident to her for years? I don't see what would motivate her now to try to make these changes. And does she still have time? Figure skating is unforgiving to ladies past 20 or so. By the time she's fundamentally revamped her skating skills, will she still be able to compete at the elite level?

Joannie was able to. Angela Nikodinov reinvented herself and was steadily climbing - had her coach and then mother not passed away who knows how she'd have done - so yes I think being "older" you can still have a chance if you're serious about it and have that mental toughness (Joannie had that, Angela not as much).
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Joannie was able to. Angela Nikodinov reinvented herself and was steadily climbing - had her coach and then mother not passed away who knows how she'd have done - so yes I think being "older" you can still have a chance if you're serious about it and have that mental toughness (Joannie had that, Angela not as much).

The only change Joannie made was to eliminate the flutz and develop a true lutz, and that cost her two full seasons. Mao has also reworked her jump technique. Again, it was a two year process, and Mao had some of the best basic skating in the World before she started.
 
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