Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Skating skills etc. are important but the jumps and spins are what make singles figure skating interesting to watch.

No. Not even remotely so. What makes skating entertaining to watch is creative programs skated to the music and skaters showing the whole package.

I can't imagine anything more boring than somebody skating from jump to jump. I'd rather watch paint dry.

And in any case, it's irrelevant what is or what isn't interesting to us.

Figure skating is a sport where everything counts and not just jumps and it makes me profoundly depressed that even a lot of the skating fans seem to be unable to acknowledge that.

Technical elements is what makes the sport a sport in most people's eyes. There's a reason why figures and compulsory dances don't exist anymore, and a reason why ice dancing is surging in popularity compared to before the CoP system.

Developing strong basics takes as much time, work and effort as learning your jumps, if not more so because it's harder to grasp and the results are not immediate in the same way.

Performing a program which features complex choreography, a lot of upper body movement and transitions take an enormous amount of strength and stamina and makes performing the technical elements much more difficult.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Go back to every comptition Mao has won this season and please tell me who had a better program and who landed the triples perfectly who should have won instead of her. The NHK competition maybe Susuki should have won. But the Cup of China and GP final, who had a superior program or landed 7 clean triples that should have won over Mao? The particular poster I was adressing is a Mao basher.

Few landed the triples perfectly but I would take flawed triples over maos underrotations and doubles. So Julia in china and Suzuki and Wagner. Mao should not have even medaled in NHk- it was an embarrassment to the sport.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Newsflash, these young girls are being destroyed in the presentation mark in CoP. If anything a performance with 7 triples including two XX-3T combos should be placed ahead of any performance with just 2 or 3 triples. Generally if you can do 7 triples you theoretically are a half-decent skater. Skating skills etc. are important but the jumps and spins are what make singles figure skating interesting to watch. Try explaining to any non-skater why 2 triples beats out 7 triples... that would have NEVER happened under 6.0.

Then I suggest you go back to see Midori's SP and LP at the 1988 Olympics. Best technical program ever, better than Liza's best jumps Adelina's best jumps combined. Her presentation and skating skills are also leagues above these two combined. And she was behind so many people who can't even do triple flip.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think that's personal preference. If you took out the jumps and spins from singles skating, the viewership would drastically drop. People appreciate a well performed program, but they clap at the tricks. I think if many of us went to SOI and nobody attempted any triple jumps but skated nice programs we still couldn't help but feel jipped. That being said, it would be boring to watch somebody skate from jump to jump, but it would be equally as boring to watch somebody skate an easy program when supposedly these are elite skaters.

I agree that it takes strength, time and focus to do complex choreography and footwork. But look at what you see in the papers, look at what you see on TV... when was the last time you saw short dances on prime time?

People are saying it's the worst quadrennial due to a slump in jumping. Many ladies are taking less risks and do what's necessary to win instead of what's necessary to wow.

What is the point of any "lesser" elite skater even skating when they have to nail all their jumps and rely on the mistakes of top skaters (who have easier jump layouts) to have a shot of winning?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
No. Not even remotely so. What makes skating entertaining to watch is creative programs skated to the music and skaters showing the whole package.

I can't imagine anything more boring than somebody skating from jump to jump. I'd rather watch paint dry.

And in any case, it's irrelevant what is or what isn't interesting to us.

Figure skating is a sport where everything counts and not just jumps and it makes me profoundly depressed that even a lot of the skating fans seem to be unable to acknowledge that.



Developing strong basics takes as much time, work and effort as learning your jumps, if not more so because it's harder to grasp and the results are not immediate in the same way.

Performing a program which features complex choreography, a lot of upper body movement and transitions take an enormous amount of strength and stamina and makes performing the technical elements much more difficult.

so this really doesn't apply to Mao with jumps this season at all. Doing all the inbetweens and choreo and not doing the jumps at all but doing the spins and steps.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Few landed the triples perfectly but I would take flawed triples over maos underrotations and doubles. So Julia in china and Suzuki and Wagner. Mao should not have even medaled in NHk- it was an embarrassment to the sport.

Ok go with that. :sarcasm:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Then I suggest you go back to see Midori's SP and LP at the 1988 Olympics. Best technical program ever, better than Liza's best jumps Adelina's best jumps combined. Her presentation and skating skills are also leagues above these two combined. And she was behind so many people who can't even do triple flip.

Actually this is supports my point. Ito was held back because of figures, placing 10th, and less than ideal SP where she placed 4th. Her SP was not the best technical program ever (2L-3L, 2F, 2A; spins not as difficult as Liza/Adelina but that's pre-CoP). The FS was one of the best ever, but she faced exactly what Tuktamysheva faced at Euros (technically way superior free but held back on artistry)... Liza had an excellent free but Carolina was given a 9-point PCS advantage.

Honestly, a skate with 3Z-3T, 3Z, 3F, 2A-3T, 3L, 3S-2T-2L, 2A -- 7 triples -- places just 1 point higher than a skate with 3Z, 2A, 3F-2T, 3L, 3T-2T, 2A, 2S-2T-2L, 2S -- only 4 triples?!? I don't care how stellar Carolina's PCS is, that is an absolute travesty.
 
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Joined
Jan 22, 2004
I think that's personal preference. If you took out the jumps and spins from singles skating, the viewership would drastically drop. People appreciate a well performed program, but they clap at the tricks. I think if many of us went to SOI and nobody attempted any triple jumps but skated nice programs we still couldn't help but feel jipped. That being said, it would be boring to watch somebody skate from jump to jump, but it would be equally as boring to watch somebody skate an easy program when supposedly these are elite skaters.

Yes. Which is why neither the jumps alone, nor the in-betweens alone are really enough. What matters in the end, and what makes figure skating so special, is the whole package.

But I see people very often focus on the jumps and put undue weight on them, whilst ignoring everything else (HI GMYERS). But TES and PCS is supposed to be a roughly 50/50 split.

Honestly, a skate with 3Z-3T, 3Z, 3F, 2A-3T, 3L, 3S-2T-2L, 2A -- 7 triples -- places just 1 point higher than a skate with 3Z, 2A, 3F-2T, 3L, 3T-2T, 2A, 2S-2T-2L, 2S -- only 4 triples?!? I don't care how stellar Carolina's PCS is, that is an absolute travesty.

And you've just done exactly that. Mention the jumps but ignore the PCS. Sorry but that's not how this sport works. Everything counts. 2013 Euros was not a 'top jump' event.

You could probably argue that Tuktamysheva was undermarked in relation to Kostner on some of the PCS but on ones like SS, PE or IN Kostner did deserve to absolutely destroy her.

(Btw, top jump events died extremely quickly because they were so boring :p)

What is the point of any "lesser" elite skater even skating when they have to nail all their jumps and rely on the mistakes of top skaters (who have easier jump layouts) to have a shot of winning?

Nobody is stopping the "lesser" skaters from improving the other aspects of their skating. Look at how Kostner skated at 2003 Euros. She was just hideous. Great jumps and nothing else. Shallow edges, hardly any connection to the music, stiff, awkward and wooden movements, generic choreography. Look at where she's at now.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Actually this is supports my point. Ito was held back because of figures, placing 10th, and less than ideal SP where she placed 4th. Her SP was not the best technical program ever (2L-3L, 2F, 2A; spins not as difficult as Liza/Adelina but that's pre-CoP). The FS was one of the best ever, but she faced exactly what Tuktamysheva faced at Euros (technically way superior free but held back on artistry)... Liza had an excellent free but Carolina was given a 9-point PCS advantage.

Honestly, a skate with 3Z-3T, 3Z, 3F, 2A-3T, 3L, 3S-2T-2L, 2A -- 7 triples -- places just 1 point higher than a skate with 3Z, 2A, 3F-2T, 3L, 3T-2T, 2A, 2S-2T-2L, 2S -- only 4 triples?!? I don't care how stellar Carolina's PCS is, that is an absolute travesty.

Actually it did not. You claimed such thing would never happened in the 6.0 system. Well, it did. A lot.
Actually, her SP was the best TES at the Olympics then. If they force any of the current girls to the jump layout requirement in the SP in 1988, most of them would not be able to add a 3loop at the end of the combo. That made the combo much much harder.
Everybody know that if they allow Ito to jump whatever she wants in the SP, she would blow all of the Russians out of the water. So yes, it was the best TES program ever given the constraint.

An absolute travesty would be Liza winning Euro or Adelina winning Euro. I don't care how many triples they can jump if all they do is jump. I don't even rewatch anything by the Russians, but I rewatch Caro's programs all the time. So there you have it.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
I don't care how many triples they can jump if all they do is jump.

Hmmmmm? Yes - IF. I completely disagree with you that that is ALL they do. I don't think I'm completely alone in this view either.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Yes. Which is why neither the jumps alone, nor the in-betweens alone are really enough. What matters in the end, and what makes figure skating so special, is the whole package.

But I see people very often focus on the jumps and put undue weight on them, whilst ignoring everything else (HI GMYERS). But TES and PCS is supposed to be a roughly 50/50 split.



And you've just done exactly that. Mention the jumps but ignore the PCS. Sorry but that's not how this sport works. Everything counts. 2013 Euros was not a 'top jump' event.

You could probably argue that Tuktamysheva was undermarked in relation to Kostner on some of the PCS but on ones like SS, PE or IN Kostner did deserve to absolutely destroy her.

(Btw, top jump events died extremely quickly because they were so boring :p)



Nobody is stopping the "lesser" skaters from improving the other aspects of their skating. Look at how Kostner skated at 2003 Euros. She was just hideous. Great jumps and nothing else. Shallow edges, hardly any connection to the music, stiff, awkward and wooden movements, generic choreography. Look at where she's at now.

Look where kostner is now! 4 triples! That's all she did in her free skate! It is a grotesque thing to watch and barely got through it because the whole thing is a big why even bother watching some skater do 4 triples.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I think, in order to satisfy people, we should institute the following rule.

1) For every triple jump you land, you get a gold medal (no edge calls, URs allowed)
2) For every three PCS categories you win, you get a gold medal.
3) For every level four spin and level four footwork you achieve, you get a gold medal.

This means that jumps would outrank everything else (in ladies, there would be 12 possible gold medals (3-3, solo triple, triple axel in the short; eight triple long) handed out for jumps vs 11 handed out (we'd get rid of transitions in one of the skates, just because, so 4 PCS categories twice, 1 once = 3 gold medals; three spins in the short, three in the long (six more), two footwork sequences (2)). We could expand the technical panel to be more diligent with levels and edge calls/URs.) The championship podium would be decided ranking the number of gold medals, with the triple jumps being the tiebreaker

Using this method

Carolina Kostner gets 10 gold medals.
Elizaveta Tuktamisheva gets 13 gold medals
Adelina Sotnikova gets 15 gold medals and the championship title.

CanadianSkaterGuy, why is it that the lesser elite skaters have awesome jumps, but mediocre skating skills, choreography, interpretation, spins, footwork, performance and transitions and why should that be only a secondary consideration when deciding who's the best?
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Hmmmmm? Yes - IF. I completely disagree with you that that is ALL they do. I don't think I'm completely alone in this view either.

I forgot to add, one moved her body to some growling noise by a wild beast. In addition to the jumps. I was not giving her all the credit she deserved.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
I forgot to add, one moved her body to some growling noise by a wild beast. In addition to the jumps. I was not giving her all the credit she deserved.

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Poor Christina Aguilera...
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Tsk, tsk, tsk! Poor Christina Aguilera...

I hate the growling, too. Christina oversings everything. If Adelina had just left out the screaming portion of her LP music the judges would have likely given her the Euro title. :laugh:
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
I hate the growling, too. Christina oversings everything. If Adelina had just left out the screaming portion of her LP music the judges would have likely given her the Euro title. :laugh:

Probably! Maybe someone should write her team and suggest removing it might improve her chances? Cannot do any harm, and anything is worth trying in pursuit of such a worthy goal, don't you think? ;)

Actually, I wonder who DOES like it? I cannot recall seeing a single person saying they did... ? Maybe that's the plan! - To unite the diverse skating community around a common cause. :)
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Maybe it's rose colored glasses, but no one skating now seems as good as Michelle, Irina, Maria B, Lu Chen, Sasha, Shizuka etc. Sarah Hughes drove me crazy, but I'd be routing for her now too. I could go on with other retired skaters I enjoy over the current batch.

The last quad had its problem too, but YuNa and Mao were at the top their games and Joannie added something for me too.

Mao, Caroline and Ashley disappoint me on both the tech and presentation side these days, so it's not just about the lack of jumps. No one seems 'complete'. YuNa has the goods, but she's been absent for a couple years. The next batch seems promising but they're still not there yet. On to 2015-2018!!
 

anthologyz

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
i'd venture to say 1977-80 was fairly dull with world titles being swapped between two mediocre skaters, fratianne vs. pötzsch, and watanabe and allen being vastly undermarked. but yes, i'm a bit cool in my reception of the past two years. i hope worlds will turn up the heat again.
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Please, don't turn this thread into ANOTHER jumps vs PCS (young girls vs Kostner/Mao) discussion! :bang:
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I'm going to take the middle ground and say I don't know how anyone could call Kostner's skate at Europeans grotesque to watch, that was a gorgeous skate! And I think she deserves the lead she gets over Tukt in PCS... I mean what about the speed Kostner goes into her elements vs Tukt's...

However, Ziggy I am going to argue that jumps aren't rewarded enough. So many ladies now aren't even going for the 3lutz in the short anymore. And under 6.0 you had ladies going for 3/3/3 but nobody really tries it now because its not rewarded in the system... (Yes Radionova but its really not rewarded)

I'd like to see triples worth a little more especially the harder ones, especially since PCS can be subjective. Look at Mao's win over Akiko's at yes NHK)... I'd also like to see harder combos rewarded. I think it would be good for the sport. But then I'd yes continue letting Kostner getting the PCS lead she gets.
 
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