Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever? | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Worst Ladies Quadrenial Ever?

heyang

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I haven't read the whole thread.... however, I think the debate about whole package vs jumps can be summed up with the question, did all the 'greats'/past champions win only because of jumps or because they were well rounded skaters? IMHO, the honest answer would be that they had a well balanced assortment of skills - none relied on one skill(jumps) to win. They were enjoyable to watch because they did more than jump.

As related to the current ladies.... let's face it, Mao and Kostner have been at it for a long time without taking a break. It's gotta be beating on their bodies. In general, age slows down reaction time. When timing is 'everything' to perform a jump well, there will be a decline in their ability to land jumps, but they've had time to build skill sets in the in betweens.

The newcomers have the jumps but seldom much inbetween -gets kinds boring just watching them do jumps - may as well just watch warmups IMHO.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
2010-2011 season was poor. 2011-2012 season was reasonable. 2012-2013 season was very strong. 2013-2014 probably will be as strong or better.

I disagree. It was stronger than the previous two years, but if not for Kim's skate at Worlds, it would have been another year where the top skaters (namely, Kostner and Asada) made considerable errors and still medaled. The Grand Prix had strong skates by Wagner and Suzuki, but both peaked too early. And then you had skaters like Korpi skate well early and then pull out with injury. Mao was regaining her consistency... had a brilliant SP at 4CC, but other than that wasn't at her best. This season was on and off for many skaters, and even Worlds/4CC/Euros was messy. Funny enough, most skaters had very strong skates only at their National competitions (Asada/Kostner/Tuktamysheva). It's clear that it's getting very difficult to pull two clean skates these days, but Kim showed that it's still possible and obviously picked the best time to do that.

I'm hoping that Kim's resurgence will spur on greater technical consistency. The Olympics has the potential to be the best ever, with lots of 3-3 combinations in the SP and FS. Many skaters seem to "get it together", so I'm hoping skaters like Sotnikova, Wagner, Tuktamysheva, Suzuki, Murakami, Kostner and Asada all peak and we see several 200+ scores.

If I'm being honest though, I think the 2018 Olympics are going to be the real one to watch... and I'm hoping it's like a Russian nationals where 3Z-3T is practically a requisite and some skaters are attempting 3As or even quads.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The younger girls are all doing 3/3 combo's so when the older skaters finally hang it up after 2014 i don't see there being a big drop off since it's mostly the older veterans who weren't doing the jump difficulty.

I worry about the younger girls becoming older and being a kostner. When kostner was young she had the 3/3 combos but also lost to 3/3 combos. So that is what I was thinking. The Pcs of the younger girls rise and then 3/3 is not vital. Against Yuna kostner had 3/3 and Mao had 3a. They have to be smart too so sometimes 3/3 may go away. Look how successful Wagner was with no 3/3 because her pcs rose because she was consistent with no 3/3!
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I disagree. It was stronger than the previous two years, but if not for Kim's skate at Worlds, it would have been another year where the top skaters (namely, Kostner and Asada) made considerable errors and still medaled.

Well by your logic the mens field must be the worst in history by an enormous margin considering Chan can do a free program with about 3 clean jumps (out of 8) and still win any event he enters if he does a clean short. Womens skating is not known for all the top skaters skating cleanly, never has been. I could go over all the last 40 years and prove that easily. You are expecting something unrealistic.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
I disagree. It was stronger than the previous two years, but if not for Kim's skate at Worlds, it would have been another year where the top skaters (namely, Kostner and Asada) made considerable errors and still medaled. The Grand Prix had strong skates by Wagner and Suzuki, but both peaked too early. And then you had skaters like Korpi skate well early and then pull out with injury. Mao was regaining her consistency... had a brilliant SP at 4CC, but other than that wasn't at her best. This season was on and off for many skaters, and even Worlds/4CC/Euros was messy. Funny enough, most skaters had very strong skates only at their National competitions (Asada/Kostner/Tuktamysheva). It's clear that it's getting very difficult to pull two clean skates these days, but Kim showed that it's still possible and obviously picked the best time to do that.

I'm hoping that Kim's resurgence will spur on greater technical consistency. The Olympics has the potential to be the best ever, with lots of 3-3 combinations in the SP and FS. Many skaters seem to "get it together", so I'm hoping skaters like Sotnikova, Wagner, Tuktamysheva, Suzuki, Murakami, Kostner and Asada all peak and we see several 200+ scores.

If I'm being honest though, I think the 2018 Olympics are going to be the real one to watch... and I'm hoping it's like a Russian nationals where 3Z-3T is practically a requisite and some skaters are attempting 3As or even quads.

No woman is going to be trying a quad anytime soon. Or for that matter a triple axel either.
 

ForeverFish

Medalist
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
No woman is going to be trying a quad anytime soon. Or for that matter a triple axel either.

We don't know that for certain. With the Olympic season right around the corner, anything is possible--and I can think of several ladies who have the technical ability to attempt and land a ratified 3A.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
It's amazing that Mao even got to the step of trying it in international competition! Sure you had Kimmie meisner once st us nationals but how do you even get a skater to try it?? Before she was on the jrgp and after the ur rules were changed tuktamisheva never tried and you can't say her coach skimps on the jumps! Sure she's a ladies skater and he mostly deals with men but no Liza 3a when coached by mishin!! Trying seems to be an unreachable step!!

Cop 3a attempts skaters
Asada
Nakano
???
No one else!
I think neledina was 6.0?
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The ladies are currently attempting more than ever before and they are no more inconsistent than they always were. For those who are unsatisfied since they expect Asada to skate her 8 triple, triple axel laden program squeeky clean or inconsistent Kostner to skate squeeky clean for the top 3 to be worth anything lets do a history recheck:

1992- nobody but Yamaguchi landed anymore than 4 clean triples.
1993- One of best ever events, but still won by Baiul with only 5 triples and no jump combination.
1994- Baiul wins Olympics with 3 clean triples. Bonaly a skater with no basic skating or artistry loses Worlds by .1 with only 5 clean triples and 2 major mistakes.
1995- Chen wins Worlds with 5 triples, and only 1 triple lutz.
1996- One of best ever events, but still Slutskaya easily wins bronze with super hard fall, only 1 triple lutz, some shaky landings, and no artistry.
1997- One of best ever long program events. Kwan though nearly wins World title with a missed triple lutz in both programs.
1998- All 3 medalists fall in long program, and silver and bronze blew combo in short program too. Bronze medal at Olympics won by technically deficient program by Lu Chen with only about 2 solid fully rotated triples, and terrible spins.
1999- Kwan has one of worst ever competitions and wins silver.
2000- Butyrskaya wins bronze with mediocre long program, and Slutskaya silver with only fair one at best.
2001- One of better events, but Slutskaya nearly wins World title with sloppy long program with several mistakes.
2002- Sarah Hughes with only about 3 truly clean triples (others all badly flutzed or UR) at Olympics over Slutskaya who only lands 4 truly clean triples, skates 60% slower than usual, and has poor artistic program. Bronze medalist Michelle Kwan falls and two foots simple triple toe-double toe combo.
2003- Suguri wins bronze medal with only 4 triples in both qualifying round and long program, and with short program where she barely lands her triple lutz combo and has an almost uncountable layback spin.
2004- Sasha Cohen wins silver with lame LP performance. Michelle Kwan very nearly wins LP with only 5 triples and 1 triple lutz.

I could keep going but I think already gets the point. What the ladies were putting out in 2011 was below the norm, but what they are putting out now is in fact well above the norm and very high quality, only a bit below the highest ever ladies standard which was the Vancouver Olympics. To put down the women is even more hilarious in the face of the other events. So Kostner barely winning silver with a LP with 2 mistakes in anotherwise exquisite display with wonderful choreography, interpreation, impeccable long lines, amazing speed, and very high jumps is bad; or Asada winning bronze with the hardest jump layout ever done by a lady and a few stumbles is just so bad, yet Patrick Chan apparently being still the best out there and the gold medalist with a LP with 5 major mistakes and overall boring presentation and panicked performance shows the mens event is so much stronger by comparision, LOL! Or the pair event where someone can fall throwing his partner and still win by 20 points over a still badly overmatched field. Then the dance event where the top 2 are probably 6 falls clear of 3rd place (although fortunately unlike Chan they dont use and show us all that margin just for the fun of it). Just rich. The ladies event stacks up extremely well to both past ladies fields, and the other 3 events currently. Anyone who thinks otherwise is apparently blind or a hater.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
We don't know that for certain. With the Olympic season right around the corner, anything is possible--and I can think of several ladies who have the technical ability to attempt and land a ratified 3A.

They do. Liza comes to mind, and I'm sure a few others can in practice as well. But the way the scoring works now it makes it not worth the effort; if you slightly UR a 3A yo are better off doing a clean 2A when factoring in the penalty, -GOE, and amount of physical exertion required.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Most of that is ridiculously skewed. Also missing is how a lot of those "technically lacking" performances in the past had exquisite artistry. Lu Chen's 5-Triple performance from 1995 Worlds blows away Kostner's from 2012 Worlds, for example.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well by your logic the mens field must be the worst in history by an enormous margin considering Chan can do a free program with about 3 clean jumps (out of 8) and still win any event he enters if he does a clean short. Womens skating is not known for all the top skaters skating cleanly, never has been. I could go over all the last 40 years and prove that easily. You are expecting something unrealistic.

It was one of the worst men's fields in the past quadrennial, and not JUST due to Chan's (freeskate) performance. All of the men save for Ten had multiple errors in their SP and FS combined. Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan/Takahashi all underwhelmed. The number of cleanly rotated and landed quads was down from previous years in this quadrennial.

Also, FYI, Chan landed the 4T-3T, 4T, 3F, 3L, 2A cleanly, which is more than three clean jumps (4 out of 8 clean jumping passes)... but I forgot that you can't seem to count when it comes to errors Chan makes and he does 20 errors a competition as far as you're concerned, and you seem to conveniently disregard the fact that almost everyone else made errors too. :rolleye:

And what do you mean women's skating has never had all the top skaters skating cleanly? Yeah, of course, it's rare for all skaters to skate cleanly, but if you talk about relatively clean, there were plenty of clean performances (with 7 triples at that) in the 90s and the 2010 Olympics saw several clean performances, particularly in the short program. Now that women can win without 6 or 7 triple performances, you don't see many of those, plus you'll obviously get more URs in ladies and those were never checked in the past.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The mens field from 2009 (maybe 2008) to date is bar none the worst in the last 30 years possibly, maybe in history. Not just the event at Worlds. The fact a skater like Evan Lysacek can win Worlds, Grand Prix final, and Olympics all in a row (without a quad to boot, it would be one thing if a guy who was actually great at something won without a jump that had been a must for medalists for a a dozen years by then, but Evan, LOL!!!), and that Chan since then can win practically every event even with 4 or more major errors at many of them (I will be more than happy to make a list), even taking into account possible poor judging (which certainly is true in favor of Chan, and to a lesser degree was true in favor of Evan) reflects a historically abysmal field to a level lower than ever seen before. In the context of that it is silly to be discussing a supposably weak womens field, when the mens field of the last 5 year makes the womens field look like skating version of royalty.

Putting the pitiful mens event of the last 5 years aside though, the current womens field boasts possibly the greatest female skater ever (Kim), a multi World Champion and Olympic medalist (Asada), a many time European Champion and World medalist and recent World Champion (Kostner), and a two time World Champion taking a break now but still not officaly retired (Asada). All skaters besides perhaps Ando at or near the the peak of their careers. It also has a slew of likely future World medalists/Champions who are already very good today- Gold, Osmond, Murakami, Li, Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva. Hardly sounds like a weak field to me. If you want to see a weak womens field or the worst ever quadrennial look at the 77-80 where Poetzsch and Fratianne were by far the 2 dominant skaters. Puke city, the only womens field so weak it could compare to the current mens field.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Most of that is ridiculously skewed. Also missing is how a lot of those "technically lacking" performances in the past had exquisite artistry. Lu Chen's 5-Triple performance from 1995 Worlds blows away Kostner's from 2012 Worlds, for example.

What?
Here's Chen Lu LP in 1995
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUzMOdtqNg

Here's Kostner LP in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOf6-8lT9t0

Lutz. Chen's lutz is barely rotated. But sure, let her have it.
Flip. Kostner's flip >>> Chen's.
Loop. Kostner's loop >>> Chen's barely rotated loop.
Salchow. Kostner's >> Chen's
Toe. Kostner's 2A-3T made it harder.

Skating skills, Kostner is so superior. Chen Lu did so many cross overs to gain speed. It was just not in the same league at all.

Program, I like Chen Lu program a bit more, but Kostner's program is pure figure skating.

Technically, Kostner should blow Chen Lu out of the water with her 2012.
Artistically, Chen is fun to watch, but Kostner is figure skating. No judges would put Chen above Kostner. Don't get it twisted.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Comparing Chen and Kostner is hard as one is clearly a 6.0 skater trained for 6.0 who would translate poorly to COP (Chen) and another is mostly a COP skater (although would translate pretty well to 6.0 too).

Under COP Kostner from the 2012 Worlds beats Chen from the 95 Worlds very easily. Under 6.0 it would be closer, and maybe with Chen coming out ahead as the judges under 6.0 valued cleanliness very highly, even though both did 5 triples and had beautiful programs, and even though Kostner has alot more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, etc..
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Under 6.0 it would be closer, and maybe with Chen coming out ahead as the judges under 6.0 valued cleanliness very highly, even though both did 5 triples and had beautiful programs, and even though Kostner has alot more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, etc..

Even though Kostner had more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, did 5 clean triples, Chen would come out ahead?
I think kostner's 2012 is a perfect example of a 6.0 program CoPifed. It was just right. And her skating is pure. It would stand up very well in any system. The artistic maturity from Kostner is just so above Chen Lu. I don't think it would be close at all.

Under 6.0 system, Chen Lu got one 5.6 mostly 5.7 and 5.8 for TES and a lot of 5.8 and a few 5.9 for PCS.
Kostner would have gotten 5.8 for TES and 5.9 to 6.0 for PCS.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Even though Kostner had more spins, better spins, bigger jumps, did 5 clean triples, Chen would come out ahead?

Well it would have been very close under 6.0, I dont know for sure who would have come out ahead. The thing about 6.0 was that falls and mistakes were a big deal to the judges, much moreso than COP. It wouldnt have just been Chen and Kostner did 5 triples, and everything else, it would be Chen skated cleanly and Kostner had a fall and another big mistake. Remember at those Worlds Nicole Bobek landed only 1 less triple (4), but more than made up for that by doing a triple lutz-triple toe combo which was way harder than anything Chen did. She had way better spins (better than Kostner's too), way better spirals (better than Kostner's too), way bigger jumps than Chen, much more speed than Chen, also had beautiful lines and extensions, and also had a well choreographed program (although less so than Chen and Kostner). She had also very easily beaten Chen in the SP with the exact same jumps. However because she fell twice Chen beat her easily, in fact she was 1st in the LP to Bobek's 4th (I am not questioning Chen beating Bobek in the LP btw, just illustrating how the judges marked mistakes then). Cleanliness was much more important under 6.0 than COP.
 

xiangfuzi

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 1, 2011
Well it would have been very close under 6.0, I dont know for sure who would have come out ahead. The thing about 6.0 was that falls and mistakes were a big deal to the judges, much moreso than COP. It wouldnt have just been Chen and Kostner did 5 triples, and everything else, it would be Chen skated cleanly and Kostner had a fall and another big mistake. P.
I think you got FlattFan's point incorrectly. She talks about Kostner LP in 2012wc but you take 2013wc. Kostner LP in 2012wc is an almost clean skate. She just doubled 3F2T but before that she had already managed a perfect 3F.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Oh sorry my bad. Even then I am not sure since not doing a triple lutz under 6.0 would be a big stickler for the judges.
 

jiggs

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
I feel like it is shaping up to be one of the most exciting seasons ever - you have the triumvirat of Yuna, Caro and Mao - imo three of the all-time bests - competing against each other. That alone is amazing! For me, they embody what I love about this sport and they bring something special to the ice. I am excited about the young talents too but imo it is the mixture of the current ladies' field that makes everything so exciting. If the top 3 retire next year, at least for me there will be something missing and I feel like the youngsters might take a while to fill up that gap.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I don't think those three are great at all compared to the skaters of the past. YuNa is by far the best of the three, but I find many of her programs to be very cookie cutter (the two at the Olympics being the exception). Mao is great that she lands the axel (and is the only woman who does with any consistency), but she doesn't always skate clean and some of her programs are just meh. Carolina is the closest thing to a female Patrick Chan. She wins without doing lutzes or flips, she wins without skating clean. She did do that nice "Italian talking with her hands" thing in her short program this year, that was different, but in previous years her wins haven't seemed fair.

Compare this to the years between, say, 98 and 02 when you had the innovative Michelle (who invented that soft, tasteful type of skating that everyone tries to emulate now), the gutsy and peppy Irina, and Sarah, Sasha and Maria Butyrskya. Now that was a quadrennial.

And as for the men--dear lord, they're awful. Say what you want about Evan, at least he never won and fell. This quadrennial, dominated by Patrick Chan (never skates clean), Daisuke (he usually doesn't either) and a revolving door of other contenders getting the bronze (Hanyu, Javier, Alexander Gachinski, etc.). It's just terrible. Maybe Dennis Ten can save it, but I wouldn't be surprised if he weren't just another one stuck in the door.
 
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