2013 4CC's Mens FS | Page 17 | Golden Skate

2013 4CC's Mens FS

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Any contender like Max or Reynolds could win worlds gold if all the top skaters skate bad like they did here unfortunately. It's happened at the Olympics and worlds for the ladies so it can happen with the men.

At this point, I think there are too many variables involved and too many talented skaters with quads to believe that Max Aaron or Kevin Reynolds could actually win gold at Worlds this year. Sure Kevin as a known quantity with more Worlds experience, and coming off a 4CC victory and with Worlds taking place in Canada, he has a better shot than Max Aaron has in his senior Worlds debut. Judges aren't necessarily going to anoint Max first time at senior Worlds with top PCS for landing quads and skating clean -- although if Max manages to get good draw positions and skates with great command, as the U.S. champion, he might score some political PCS points, along with the quad credit.

Now if Max and Kevin were actually more complete all-around skaters armed with such solid quads, they could really rock the house at Worlds. At their best, they are both pleasing to watch with the definite improvements they are making in their presentation skills. But they know just like we do that landing quads is much more important than bringing transcendent artistry to the ice.

The intriguing, appetizing possibility of slam dunk artistry combined with athletic ability is IMO what the judges love so much about Hanyu and Chan (and to a lesser extent Dai, since his quads aren't as solid). Unfortunately, Jeremy Abbott, Dai Takahashi and to a lesser extent, Denis Ten are the only high-ranked guys with truly mesmerizing artistic skills, but without the solid quads (and in Jeremy's and Ten's case, without consistent technique on jumps under pressure). And, Jeremy, who didn't even make it to Worlds this year, has been suffering from physical instability. Dai unfortunately was dissed in favor of Chan last season, and has fallen off artistically and athletically this season. Chan with creditable success this season seems to have felt the necessity to redeem himself artistically, even though he never stunk in that aspect -- there was just room for improvement in comparison to what Abbott and Dai bring to the ice artistically. As I've said repeatedly, Hanyu is engaging to watch and his quads are spectacularly beautiful, but he still needs to mature and further develop his style and identity on the ice. So, bottom line I don't think it helps necessarily to over-reward Han and Hanyu at this stage, especially with record-breaking scores.

Fernandez has more potential to win gold, and I think Amodio has a better chance than Kevin to podium should Hanyu, Chan, or Dai stumble significantly. Although, I personally can't stand Amodio's style of skating under Morosov, and I don't think he should be that highly regarded PCS-wise. Fernandez has the potential to be a skating god IMHO, but he's not really there yet artistically. Fernandez' quads like Hanyu's are absolutely beautiful in the air and spectacular when cleanly landed, and he's usually consistent on them. Personally, I don't like the idea of trying to land three quads in a program because I actually think it detracts from the artistic focus and balance of a program. But there you have it, the sport has gone to the quads. ISU seems to feel artistry is welcome and appreciated, but guys are being given the message they don't really have to bother spending too much time on that. Many will probably be injured and out of the sport before they have the chance to significantly improve their artistic skills with further growth and development of a polished, mature style.

At U.S. Nationals, one of the best skates of the entire figure skating season was performed by a relatively unknown skater, Alexander Johnson. Now that was complete skating, even without a quad! But who really cares among ISU PTB? The mens' event in fs is all about the battle of the quads and if you add potential artistry or show some arm-fluttering or emotive improvement with a dollop of well chosen music and/ or thematic enhancing choreography, you're in the conversation for podium buzz.
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
This statement is so wrong and is indicative of nearly everything that is wrong about judging right now. Where in the rules for PCS does it say that quads = good PCS? Nowhere.

Uh....only a single poster in this entire 22-page thread said that Daisuke was underscored and he/she quickly retracted the statement a couple pages later. Being upset that a skater skated poorly does not necessarily mean that one is mad or complaining that a skater is scored low by the judges. :rolleye:


I was saying that a clean performance (including one with 3 cleanly landed quads) should merit good PCS marks in performance and execution. Also, a technically demanding program but still being able to project choreography is a lot harder than an easier jump layout and projecting the same choreography. Are you suggesting that a performance with 8 clean jumping passes if skated 5 minutes later and riddled with 8 falls should get the same PCS marks, if the skater skates the rest of the program the same way?

Mistakes, depending on how detracting they are, will and should affect the performance and execution at the very least -- it's not rocket science that a clean program, particularly with exceptional difficulty, "looks" better.

Obviously it's okay to be disappointed with his skate and being in that boat, I'm obviously not attacking people who were I clarified in my post that my beef was with him getting judged not as harshly. And, uh.... as hard as it is to believe, there's a world of opinions outside this forum. :rolleye: Commenters on posts/videos, and yes, even skaters in the real world (!) have said Dai should have been scored higher and I was commenting on those individuals. As a general statement I was also alluding to those who generally think mistake-riddled programs should score higher just because it's a good skater.
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I was saying that a clean performance (including one with 3 cleanly landed quads) should merit good PCS marks in performance and execution. Also, a technically demanding program but still being able to project choreography is a lot harder than an easier jump layout and projecting the same choreography. Are you suggesting that a performance with 8 clean jumping passes if skated 5 minutes later and riddled with 8 falls should get the same PCS marks, if the skater skates the rest of the program the same way?

Mistakes, depending on how detracting they are, will and should affect the performance and execution at the very least -- it's not rocket science that a clean program, particularly with exceptional difficulty, "looks" better.

Well, it's very natural to think that but if you actually read the rules, a clean performance does not automatically require good PCS marks in PE. If you read the rules, for the criteria for PE (for singles skaters) are:

-Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement
-Carriage
-Style and individuality/personality
-Clarity of movement
-Variety and contrast
-Projection

Of the 6 criteria, only "clarity of movement' is really directly correlated to a clean performance. For example, if a skater like Kexin Zhang skates cleanly and lands all her jumps, her PE mark would not necessarily be high or good as she lacks (IMO) physical, emotional and intellectual involvement, style and individuality/personality, variety and contrast, and projection in her skating even when she lands her jumps. Will her PE mark be higher than it would be if she fell on all her jumping passes? Under the rules, of course, because her clarity of movement would be much better. But that still doesn't negate the fact that she's still lacking in 5 of the 6 categories of PE.

Obviously it's okay to be disappointed with his skate and being in that boat, I'm obviously not attacking people who were I clarified in my post that my beef was with him getting judged harshly. And, uh.... as hard as it is to believe, there's a world of opinions outside this forum. :rolleye: Commenters on posts/videos, and yes, even skaters in the real world (!) have said Dai should have been scored higher and I was commenting on those individuals. As a general statement I was also alluding to those who generally think mistake-riddled programs should score higher just because it's a good skater.

You know....I love Daisuke's skating, but I don't think he should have placed any higher. He skated terribly and on a macro, look-at-his-skating-as-a-whole/6.0ish perspective, the marks should be terrible. And I do agree they should be terrible. But I do understand why people are complaining about his scores because if you break down Daisuke's performance and examine everything from a CoP, the-whole-is-the-sum-of-its-parts perspective, there is no way that Daisuke (for example) scored only 0.5 higher than Kevin in SS because Daisuke's SS is about 20 times better than Kevin's. Even if Kevin lands 10 quads in the LP, he still has mediocre edge quality, is very slow and lacks flow and effortless glide, etc. I actually agree with you that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized, but unfortunately that's not how the current scoring system works in theory. And I think the judges intuitively agree that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized and clean programs rewarded, because if they were marking strictly according to the rules, the outcome may have been rather different.

But unfortunately for them, the people who are aware of the rules generally get baffled and angry when they see that the rules aren't being followed.

This is definitely something that needs to be addressed by the ISU. Either get the judges to follow the rules more closely, or change the rules.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
I was saying that a clean performance (including one with 3 cleanly landed quads) should merit good PCS marks in performance and execution. Also, a technically demanding program but still being able to project choreography is a lot harder than an easier jump layout and projecting the same choreography. Are you suggesting that a performance with 8 clean jumping passes if skated 5 minutes later and riddled with 8 falls should get the same PCS marks, if the skater skates the rest of the program the same way?

Mistakes, depending on how detracting they are, will and should affect the performance and execution at the very least -- it's not rocket science that a clean program, particularly with exceptional difficulty, "looks" better.

Obviously it's okay to be disappointed with his skate and being in that boat, I'm obviously not attacking people who were I clarified in my post that my beef was with him getting judged harshly. And, uh.... as hard as it is to believe, there's a world of opinions outside this forum. :rolleye: Commenters on posts/videos, and yes, even skaters in the real world (!) have said Dai should have been scored higher and I was commenting on those individuals. As a general statement I was also alluding to those who generally think mistake-riddled programs should score higher just because it's a good skater.


Yes, but as far as what people are saying about Dai in other venues has no bearing in this thread unless you specify in your initial post that you are talking about opinions being made beyond GSF.

What you say in your first sentence bolded above, points out the difficulty in judging figure skating, particularly under the existing constantly fluctuating rules, and re the historical tradition of politics-based/ reputation-based scoring. Clearly PCS marks under the current system are manipulated and are often used as place holders.

Kevin did an admirable job and his quads looked effortless (though he did have some execution downgrades in the sp). To be honest, I think Hanyu and Fernandez have greater height and more beauty on their quads than Kevin (and if this were diving, there would be expert judges able to detect the difference in aesthetic quality of execution and reward accordingly). But this is figure skating, and so the arguments among fans will continue, as will the ineptitude, confusion, and political-based scoring among judges. Of course some judges strive to do their best but they generally have their feds and the ISU to answer to, plus they are all hamstrung by the complexity of the judging system, which in turn lends itself to political and expectation judging.

Further, I would argue that while Kevin's program is good and he's working his arms (almost too much) and including transitions, it's not close to being an artistically mature and complete performance, nor is the choreography especially memorable or unique, nor was his interpretation.

Our different perceptions and comments get to the heart of the problem. The ISU can't be bothered to seriously convene past skaters, top coaches and long time, well-regarded authorities and experts in the art and sport of figure skating to sit down and come up with a measurable standard that can cut through the subjective nature of the sport and go a long way toward lessening random scoring and politics-based scoring. The reason is that the sport is traditionally elitist, stagnant, disorganized, politically back-biting and haphazard at all levels, and above all has been led for far too long by a power-broker from a different sport.
 
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lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
At this point, I think there are too many variables involved and too many talented skaters with quads to believe that Max Aaron or Kevin Reynolds could actually win gold at Worlds this year.

I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I agree that Kevin's program isn't particularly memorable, but he does have excellent qualities. For example, I actually think that his arms are more graceful than Hanyu's throughout his program. Hanyu still has juniorish qualities and doesn't have the grace and finesse of, say, Daisuke... but this will come with maturity. I think the same is happening with Kevin being around for a while, he's actually developing more of a maturity to his skating. Unfortunately, his "look" still has a boyish quality, but I think his carriage, spins, and flow are much better. He's actually integrating the high difficulty a lot better into the choreo instead of just reeling off tricks.

Kevin's quads aren't as good as Javier or Hanyu but his success rate and versatility with them is admirable. He's been landing quads for ages and has probably landed the most quad salchows of any man ever. Javier is just finding his consistency with his quad this season, as is Hanyu, but that being said, both are better quads than Kevin's.

Yeah, PCS being manipulated is the worst thing. It guarantees medals to veterans even with subpar skates and holds back newcomers who land everything (because, obviously, since they're new they are automatically inferior). That there is supposedly only one bullet point to one part of the PCS score that actually correlates to a successful performance is weird and blatant evidence that PCS can manipulate results.

It's obvious that Dai was hammered for his PCS still (he got 82 points here vs. 90 points at the GPF), but it's also crazy that such a flawed performance would have earned the same components scores as Javier's lights-out skate at the GPF, only because if Dai's worst skate's PCS is on part with Javier's best skate's PCS, there's something very wrong with that.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).

I'm hoping not, actually. If Max and Kevin have great skates like these, I would hope they would score higher than Hanyu/Javier/Dai/Patrick with mistake-riddled programs. Obviously, there are politics and predispositions that are in place to prevent that, but one would hope the competition is scored fairly. The men's competition has lately been a fairly decent example of how the sport can be judged fairly, and I would hate to see that compromised by mediocre performances boosted due to popularity.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).

^^ Ha, ha, maybe the performance inconsistencies that showed up at 4CC can be blamed on the rigors of having to land quads. ;) There will certainly be more top level skaters competing at Worlds, and I think the judging is in such flux that it changes from competition to competition. Maybe the judges will be admonished to be more careful at Worlds. Seemingly at U.S. Nationals the judging was very conservative in the sp, but in the scoring for singles lp performances, the judges seemed to have imbibed one martini too many, or something. :p

Probably a lot of people will feel that everything balanced out here in the end, but it's also possible to argue differently because there was as much inconsistency in the skating as there was in the judging. Once again, kudos to Kevin for remaining remarkably calm, consistent, well-centered and courageous. We'll see if he feels any added pressure at Worlds, or whether winning 4CC gives him an additional confidence boost and whether his solid training will continue to bolster his mental strength. Certainly, performing in Canada with the home crowd behind him will either add to his confidence or increase the pressure.

Well, it's very natural to think that but if you actually read the rules, a clean performance does not automatically require good PCS marks in PE. If you read the rules, for the criteria for PE (for singles skaters) are:

-Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement
-Carriage
-Style and individuality/personality
-Clarity of movement
-Variety and contrast
-Projection

Of the 6 criteria, only "clarity of movement' is really directly correlated to a clean performance. For example, if a skater like Kexin Zhang skates cleanly and lands all her jumps, her PE mark would not necessarily be high or good as she lacks (IMO) physical, emotional and intellectual involvement, style and individuality/personality, variety and contrast, and projection in her skating even when she lands her jumps. Will her PE mark be higher than it would be if she fell on all her jumping passes? Under the rules, of course, because her clarity of movement would be much better. But that still doesn't negate the fact that she's still lacking in 5 of the 6 categories of PE.

You know....I love Daisuke's skating, but I don't think he should have placed any higher. He skated terribly and on a macro, look-at-his-skating-as-a-whole/6.0ish perspective, the marks should be terrible. And I do agree they should be terrible. But I do understand why people are complaining about his scores because if you break down Daisuke's performance and examine everything from a CoP, the-whole-is-the-sum-of-its-parts perspective, there is no way that Daisuke (for example) scored only 0.5 higher than Kevin in SS because Daisuke's SS is about 20 times better than Kevin's. Even if Kevin lands 10 quads in the LP, he still has mediocre edge quality, is very slow and lacks flow and effortless glide, etc. I actually agree with you that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized, but unfortunately that's not how the current scoring system works in theory. And I think the judges intuitively agree that mistake-ridden programs should be more penalized and clean programs rewarded, because if they were marking strictly according to the rules, the outcome may have been rather different.

But unfortunately for them, the people who are aware of the rules generally get baffled and angry when they see that the rules aren't being followed.

This is definitely something that needs to be addressed by the ISU. Either get the judges to follow the rules more closely, or change the rules.

Thanks for that expert analysis, evangeline. :) I think it points out just how over-complicated the judging is, which again lends itself to random fluctuation, politics-based and rep-based scoring, and PCS manipulation. The rules need to be further contemplated, codified and simplified. Also, judges need to be better trained, but that can't happen until the rules and scoring system are made more precise and measurable, so that proper training will actually be of benefit. The judges are all scrambling to get the split second technical aspects of their judging right, and even with the tech callers, I think programs are too broken down into parts right now which detracts from judges being able to really even distinguish "clarity of movement, or variety and contrast, etc." Some of them probably don't even know exactly what those criteria mean in assessing a program.

There needs to be better clarity and simplification for judges, but I also think there should be someone just watching the whole program and rating skaters on an overall aesthetic basis (they have a tech caller, why not an artistic caller?). In addition, skaters should be allowed more freedom in their free skates, and the spin revolution requirements should be decreased. An artistic caller should have an understanding of figure skating and athletics, and should also have a background in understanding dance technique, choreography, and the aesthetics of performance.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Well, CanadianSkaterGuy, I think Kevin has very good qualities. He's a hard worker and seemingly a very sweet guy. It's a nice breakthrough for him after being on the scene for awhile. Still, I don't think his skating currently is at top level excellence. He doesn't yet command the ice in the way that Daisuke does. Of course, when Dai makes mistakes and doesn't have as great choreo, his PCS should suffer, but Dai is even with mistakes a much better well-rounded skater than Kevin Reynolds and Javier Fernandez. And, Javi is a better overall skater than Kevin. Hanyu is still quite young, but he has a precocious facility that is quite unique. Kevin has definitely improved his presentation but at this point it's merely on the surface, and he needs to tone down his arm movements for them to have more meaning and impact. Also, of course, Patrick Chan will have something to say about the make-up of the podium at Worlds.

Frankly, among current competitors, Dai has a charisma, an athleticism, a presence and a performance quality which outshines everyone except Jeremy Abbott. I think part of that reason is that Dai has worked very hard on developing both his athletic and his artistic abilities. He has placed equal emphasis on both and it shows, because when he started out he was mainly just a good athletic skater. I think Dai soaked up the artistic influences of Stephane Lambiel, Jeffrey Buttle, Johnny Weir, and likely past masters, as well as seeking out the advice of ballet dancers and relying on Morosov's input in terms of the ground-breaking rockin' Swan program (although Morosov has been less helpful to Dai this season). Last season, Dai's Camerlengo choreographed programs were absolutely iconic and he also worked hard at getting back his quad with success. But still Dai was dissed by the judges. He took it in stride and is still working hard, but the sad fact will forever be: Dai Takahashi should have won Worlds in 2012.

What the up-and-coming aspiring skaters with quads need to develop is not only artistic maturity, but presence, true musical interpretation, and a sense of style that they can convey to the audience with confidence and courage that comes with knowing and being comfortable with who they are. It is a progressive journey and it takes time. That is what makes figure skating so challenging, but also very rewarding to skaters and to fans when the destination is reached and on rare occasions, transcended.
 
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TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
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Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).

Yeah. Because what figure skating REALLY needs at this point is for the athletes who outskated the others to be locked off the podium.

Kevin Reynolds probably wasn't on many people's betting sheet as the gold medalist. But he performed when the others didn't. He absolutely won that competition. A skater who comes out of nowhere to upset the favorites is a GREAT result!

If the "chosen ones" want those medals, they better be prepared to earn them, because there's a new flock of young guns who will seize the moment.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
At the 1999 Skate America in Colorado Springs on October 31, 1999, Timothy Goebel became the first skater to land three quadruple jumps in one program. Look how many years it has taken for anyone to match that. I believe Goebel's was two salchows and a toe. Someone posted earlier that Joubert had achieved that too.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
I definitely hope there's more variables at worlds to prevent what happened here at 4CC. I'm just preparing myself to not be surprise by not such great results (imo).

Yeah. Because what figure skating REALLY needs at this point is for the athletes who outskated the others to be locked off the podium.

Kevin Reynolds probably wasn't on many people's betting sheet as the gold medalist. But he performed when the others didn't. He absolutely won that competition. A skater who comes out of nowhere to upset the favorites is a GREAT result!

If the "chosen ones" want those medals, they better be prepared to earn them, because there's a new flock of young guns who will seize the moment.


TontoK, I agree that lavender could have been more specific re what she means by "prevent what happened," because honestly I don't think anyone has said they think Kevin Reynolds didn't deserve to win. Clearly he was the most consistent and he delivered the quads, which is definitely huge. Contrary to your assessment, Kevin did not come out of nowhere. He's been around for awhile now. Plus, he did a great job at Canadian Nationals, so many were eager to see if he could do as consistently well at 4CC. But yes, this is the first time that he performed so well in both programs internationally against heavily favored top medal winners.

And, the "chosen one" for the prior two seasons has been Kevin's compatriot, Patrick Chan. This season it has been Yuzuru Hanyu. Dai has definitely been in the running and is a strong veteran who won Worlds in 2010, but Dai has not really in my estimation been considered "a chosen one." If that was the case, the judges wouldn't have dissed him at Nice Worlds in 2012.

Betting sheets don't matter, but better and more consistent judging is what matters. In view of the problems a lot of the men skaters had at 4CC, I don't think better judging would or should have changed the top result, i.e., Kevin winning. He deserved to win among this field based on the performances. But better judging should definitely have changed the way TES and PCS scores were delivered and might have affected the overall placements (aside from Kevin) in both the sp and the lp, as well as kept the scoring levels comparatively reasonable. Without a clear measurable standard, it's impossible to achieve good consistent judging across the board at every event. So the debates will continue.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
At the 1999 Skate America in Colorado Springs on October 31, 1999, Timothy Goebel became the first skater to land three quadruple jumps in one program. Look how many years it has taken for anyone to match that. I believe Goebel's was two salchows and a toe. Someone posted earlier that Joubert had achieved that too.


So what? The better questions are why, does it matter, and if so how does that impact the sport as a sport, and where does the balance between art and sport factor in? Also, what about the equipment, physical training strategies and conditioning of athletes? In any case, Fernandez already accomplished 3 quads in a program earlier this season and again at Europeans, and Joubert has definitely achieved the feat more than once. Kevin doing it successfully at his Nationals and at 4CC is a personal accomplishment and noteworthy for which he was handsomely rewarded, but IMO, it's not an historic accomplishment. It's something to cheer and to congratulate, but also to keep within perspective.

The sport itself is out of balance and no one is making a concerted effort to find the delicate balance between reasonable evolutionary athleticism and superlative artistry. The over-focus on quads and 3 quads in a program is causing further imbalance. Perhaps the most significant question is how many quads are enough? This sport can not be measured in the same way that other sports are measured. Athletic feats in other sports are conducted under very different conditions and performed in relatively short spurts or time periods that are within reason for continuing to maximize athletic difficulty.

IMO, it will be impossible to continue adding revolutions to jumps in figure skating beyond four or trying to perform more than three quads in a lp, unless other elements within a program are significantly reduced and the required length of programs is also reduced. Already musicality and artistry have been adversely affected by the overemphasis on quad jumps and tacking on of point-grabbing moves that don't make sense to the whole of a well-constructed program. In addition, the fact that figures are not required for all skaters to practice has actually harmed the technical consistency and precision of not only skating skills, but jumps too. In fact, the lack of significant and constructive practice of figures basics is likely a reason why it's hard to push for those extra revolutions, because many skaters are not sound enough in their technique to even properly perform triples. Put that in your pipe and smoke it ISU!

Whither thou goest, figure skating ...?


ETA:
IMO, figure skating should concentrate on improving the technical expertise, endurance, conditioning and artistic performance quality of its athletes, instead of over-focusing on jump revolutions to the detriment of everything else. And as already pointed out ad infinitum: The ISU needs to responsibly, thoughtfully and with exhaustive determination and expert input, repair and reform the judging system for the long term benefit of the skaters and credibility of the sport, not for the short-sighted protection of judges and necessary but ultimately useless attempt to save figure skating's image. True respect is achieved through substantive, beneficial change and matters more than a masked-over image.
 
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TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
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Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
Art&Sport, I find your comments informative and interesting.

I'm not sure I agree with everything you've written, but I absolutely agree that the elimination of the school figures has something to do with the overall lack of controlled and secure skating. The figures should be brought back.

Now, how's THAT for some old outdated dinosaur thinking!

ETA: I agree on second read that I might have misinterpreted the exact meaning of a post... but I do think several consider this to be a dud competition because the favorites faltered. Nonsense! A lesser-known skater without stellar international credentials (as opposed to my erroneous "came out of nowhere") skated a lights-out performance and came away with the gold. By all accounts he is a hardworking athlete, and he certainly looked justifiably thrilled at the outcome! That's not a bad situation. Good for him!

And while we're on the subject, Sarah Hughes deserved her gold medal on that night in SLC, too.
 
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CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
No figures! :laugh: Yes, to teaching them for the basics, but no to actually having them in competition. I actually dislike the controlled skating style -- I think it detracts from being able to interpret a program. Since the 80s you see a lot more "themes" and more creativity in the performance. And the transitions mark of PCS does somewhat encourage the retention of intricate steps and turns.

Yeah. Because what figure skating REALLY needs at this point is for the athletes who outskated the others to be locked off the podium.

Kevin Reynolds probably wasn't on many people's betting sheet as the gold medalist. But he performed when the others didn't. He absolutely won that competition. A skater who comes out of nowhere to upset the favorites is a GREAT result!

If the "chosen ones" want those medals, they better be prepared to earn them, because there's a new flock of young guns who will seize the moment.

This. Yan and Song also had an excellent competition. For Han Yan to win Junior Worlds and make the podium is an excellent feat.

I think Dai's a great artist, but he really let the program go with the mistakes (which also was reflected in the PCS). At least at the GPF he showed how the program can be performed to its potential. He really lives his programs, but he's a bit hot and cold when it comes to technically skating well. His jumps are just okay and he lacks the height and flow that Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan have. I had him pegged as a sure top 3 at Worlds, but this competition has compromised that. One would presume that these 2 performances would barely even keep him in the top 10 at Worlds. Better here than at Worlds though, and hopefully he can bounce back.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Yes, TontoK, thoughtful reflection is a good thing. It's not a question of whether or not I'm right, or whether any of us are right in our perceptions. The important thing is to look at the current state of affairs in figure skating from a broader perspective, and for people in responsible positions who have a passion and concern for the sport to come together and share ideas and to consider and implement solutions in a positive, forward-thinking and productive way.


No one said bring figures back for competition, CanadianSkaterGuy. What has been said is that figures are a basic foundation of figure skating, which helps skaters improve technical consistency and blade control. Some of today's skaters have mentioned how devoting even a little bit of time to practicing figures has helped them perform their jumps better. And wonder of wonders, where do people think Patrick Chan's above average SS come from? They come from his early coaches having made him practice figures diligently. The judges have been awe-inspired by Patrick's SS without even realizing just why he's more masterful at ice coverage and blade control than most of his contemporaries. Patrick's figures-based SS are probably also a factor in his ability to have mastered quads so quickly and effectively.

Han's idol is Patrick Chan, and so Han has probably followed Chan's example in practicing figures as part of his training regimen. Han and Song are both talented, but I think Han right now is exhibiting greater potential to become a complete skater (artistically and athletically).

Dai's problems likely have more to do with trying to maintain athletic consistency at his age (what with the wear and tear on his body over the years -- don't forget that he came back from a difficult surgery a few years ago). I also think Dai had troubles switching so recently to a new sp, which can sap mental concentration. It was a risk that didn't work out for him at 4CC. As far as Dai's lp, again his mental and physical conditioning may not be where it needs to be at the moment. I don't even know why it was necessary for Dai to compete at 4CC. He should have saved himself for Worlds. But I suppose he didn't pull out of 4CC because it took place in his home country.


ETA:
BTW, CanadianSkaterGuy, it's not clear what you mean by "controlled skating style." If skaters don't develop good blade control, they are prone to URs and to performing jump take-offs on the wrong edge. Practicing the basics of figures not only improves edge technique but also helps skaters develop better flow, speed and ice coverage, which in turn leads to better consistency on their jumps.
 
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figuristka

Medalist
Joined
Dec 15, 2003
Well, I'll say bring back figures for competition. I'd say the same for compulsory dances too.

Actually that would benefit both Patrick and V/M greatly.Don't think some people would like that because Patrick would be way ahead even before the short LOL I actually really miss compulsory dance, and i don't think its just because i used to do them myself. It was such a good way to compare skaters.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I'd like to see figures and compulsories introduce in competitions for juniors, for sure, and maybe an international standard qualifying test that all seniors would have to pass (pairs included) before competing on the senior circuit (Senior B's excepted - so GP and ISU championship events)
 
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