Should base value for a 3A be higher? | Golden Skate

Should base value for a 3A be higher?

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Currently, the base value for a triple axel is 8.5. However, in the ladies event, the 3A is so rarely landed cleanly that I don't think 8.5 properly reflects how difficult it is in the ladies event. Only 6 ladies skaters have successfully landed a 3A in competition in the entire history of figure skating, and it has taken Mao a long time to get the 3A back.

Hence, should the base value for a 3A be increased?
 
Last edited:

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Sure, raise the base value of the 3A for the ladies and give the one lady who is currently capable of landing it a huge advantage over the rest of the field. But if you're going to do that, why not just write in a rule that says MAO ASADA wins? :p The lack of success or attempt rates for the 3A in the ladies is not justification in itself to increase the base value for the ladies. There are zero ladies doing quads at the moment, why not increase the base value of the quad for the ladies, because it must be very difficult for a lady to land a quad, therefore we need to give them a bigger incentive to do it?

Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.

With all other requirements in the SP, the ISU has waited--sometimes too long--to make sure that numerous contenders in the field are capable of doing a technical element before allowing it to be done in the SP, so that no one skater had a major advantage over the others. But not with the 3A for the ladies. And that's just not fair to the rest of the field.
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Sure, raise the base value of the 3A for the ladies and give the one lady who is currently capable of landing it a huge advantage over the rest of the field. But if you're going to do that, why not just write in a rule that says MAO ASADA wins? :p The lack of success or attempt rates for the 3A in the ladies is not justification in itself to increase the base value for the ladies. There are zero ladies doing quads at the moment, why not increase the base value of the quad for the ladies, because it must be very difficult for a lady to land a quad, therefore we need to give them a bigger incentive to do it?

Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.

With all other requirements in the SP, the ISU has waited--sometimes too long--to make sure that numerous contenders in the field are capable of doing a technical element before allowing it to be done in the SP, so that no one skater had a major advantage over the others. But not with the 3A for the ladies. And that's just not fair to the rest of the field.

SP used to be called tech program, I don't think allowing 3A in SP is bad or unfair in anyway, They should even allow 4A on men.

Using the same logic,
How many ladies can land more than one clean three lutz in free skater nowaday, should second Lutz be prohibited in lady long program?

Mao 3A is not even consistent in the first place, it not like she gain a lot of advantage. 3A value is even less than 3L - 3T
 
Last edited:

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
SP used to be called tech program, I don't think allowing 3A in SP is bad or unfair in anyway, They should even allow 4A on men.

Using the same logic,
How many ladies can land more than one clean three lutz in free skater nowaday, should second Lutz be prohibited in lady long program?

Hmm, you're not setting up your example properly. Using the same logic, since we're not seeing an abundance of true lutzes in the ladies nowadays, should the ISU allow a third lutz to be attempted in the ladies long program, exempt from the Zayak rule? That would only benefit ladies who have a true lutz. And we wouldn't want that, now would we? :slink:
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Hmm, you're not setting up your example properly. Using the same logic, since we're not seeing an abundance of true lutzes in the ladies nowadays, should the ISU allow a third lutz to be attempted in the ladies long program, exempt from the Zayak rule? That would only benefit ladies who have a true lutz. And we wouldn't want that, now would we? :slink:

Well, they should not allow third lutz otherwise the program will mainly based on this jump, 3A is different because you still have to land more variety kind of triple than if you have three 3lutz in the program.

BTW, let agree to disagree!
 

starryxskies

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.

With all other requirements in the SP, the ISU has waited--sometimes too long--to make sure that numerous contenders in the field are capable of doing a technical element before allowing it to be done in the SP, so that no one skater had a major advantage over the others. But not with the 3A for the ladies. And that's just not fair to the rest of the field.

Then maybe the ladies should start to play catch up and train the 3A. I don't see why any lady with a 3A should be be held back just because their peers can't do what they can do. This is a competitive sport, you're not supposed to hold hands and take the leap together.
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Mao's landing of the 3A at 2013 4CCs SP is a great achievement, but I can't agree with the way the rules came about allowing her to attempt it as a solo jump in the SP. If only ONE man was capable of doing quads and the ISU had changed the rules allowing the men to do a solo quad, then that would have been extremely unfair. Countless men had been doing quads for decades before the ISU allowed the men to do a solo quad in the SP out of steps. No ONE male skater was the beneficiary of that rule change. That wasn't the case when the ISU allowed the "ladies" field to attempt a solo 3A in the field, which only affected one skater--Mao Asada.

I believe it was unfair to Asada not being able to do a 3A instead of the 2A until 2010-211 season. How is it supposed for this sport to move forward by restricting the technical content? To me they should allow even a 4Axel. It doesn't matter nobody can do it now but if it is allowed, it encourages skaters to try it(don't take the 4Axel example literally).
It's unfair that pairs are not allowed to do a 4twist in the SP IMO.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Just curious, what is the history of 3A BV over the last few years? I thought it increase many times already, it even has its own GOE values while everyone else triple is reduced by 30%. So not only does it increased, every other jumps were held back by 30% GOEs. Plus the ridiculous 70% UR roles means now an UR 3A is almost the same as a fully rotated 3Lz.

How much is enough? How much is too much?
 
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
No it shouldn't. It's been increased already.

There's only a handful of female skaters in the history of the sport who were capable of landing a triple axel so I don't think that it's the score being too low that is an issue here.
 
Last edited:

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Then maybe the ladies should start to play catch up and train the 3A. I don't see why any lady with a 3A should be be held back just because their peers can't do what they can do. This is a competitive sport, you're not supposed to hold hands and take the leap together.

Mao wasn't being held back by the rules in the SP regarding the 3A. She was being held back by her own lack of consistency with the 3/3 and her inability to do a triple lutz in the SP--she had her 3/3 in the SP downgraded several times in the 2008-2009 season and/or kept doubling the lutz in the SP--very costly errors. That's why she switched it the following season to remove the lutz and to replace the 3/3 with a 3A combo. And now the solo 3A in the SP, when successfully executed, more than compensates for the absence of the 3/3 and lutz.

No one has to hold hands and take the leap together, but the rules and purpose of the SP are different than for the FP. As I said above, the men weren't allowed to do a solo 3A or quad in the SP until numerous skaters proved themselves capable of taking advantage of it; why did the ISU veer from historical precedent for the ladies in regards to the 3A in the SP?

I believe it was unfair to Asada not being able to do a 3A instead of the 2A until 2010-211 season. How is it supposed for this sport to move forward by restricting the technical content? To me they should allow even a 4Axel. It doesn't matter nobody can do it now but if it is allowed, it encourages skaters to try it(don't take the 4Axel example literally).
It's unfair that pairs are not allowed to do a 4twist in the SP IMO.

The sport as a whole is not moving forward by giving one skater an advantage in the SP over everyone else. Mao always had an advantage with the 3A in the FS, where either a 2A or a 3A fulfilled the axel requirement. However, she couldn't take maximum advantage of it because in the 2009-2010 season, she decided to omit the lutz and salchow, so she still needed a 2A to take up a jumping pass. She could have boosted her base value in the SP in the 2009-2010 season further by attempting a lutz instead of a flip, but she didn't. Mao's own weaknesses with jumps other than the 3A held her back, not the rules.
 

starryxskies

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Excuse me Jaylee, I thought we were discussing the issue of the 3A - not what was holding Mao back. Notice that I used "any lady who has a 3A" because I'm actually talking about any lady with a 3A. For example, if Suzuki had a 3A, I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to showcase that in the SP. And the rule allows that - which I'm saying is fair. If Mao didn't have the 3A, then she'll just need to work harder and get it. Result?! The sport WILL be moving forward. This is what has happened with the Mens and the quad. These guys are fighting to land the next quad flip, etc. If the SP was called technical program to show your technical abilities, how does the ability to do the 3A not fit into this category?

Just because something is tradition, doesn't mean it's fair. Just because in the past, a lot of men were able to do the quad before it was allowed as a single element, doesn't mean it that was fair either.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
jaylee said:
Mao wasn't being held back by the rules in the SP regarding the 3A. She was being held back by her own lack of consistency with the 3/3 and her inability to do a triple lutz in the SP--she had her 3/3 in the SP downgraded several times in the 2008-2009 season and/or kept doubling the lutz in the SP--very costly errors. That's why she switched it the following season to remove the lutz and to replace the 3/3 with a 3A combo. And now the solo 3A in the SP, when successfully executed, more than compensates for the absence of the 3/3 and lutz.

No one has to hold hands and take the leap together, but the rules and purpose of the SP are different than for the FP. As I said above, the men weren't allowed to do a solo 3A or quad in the SP until numerous skaters proved themselves capable of taking advantage of it; why did the ISU veer from historical precedent for the ladies in regards to the 3A in the SP?

Sorry to say it like that, but pretty much everything you wrote is cringe-worthy.
Skaters have different strengths, some are better with 3-3's, some with other jump0s, for example the 3A. Why does it make sense to you that skaters with a 3-3-should have a general advantage in the SP and the LP, but a 3A - being an extremly tough element, seldomly landed by a female - should not be allowed to give someone an advantage over other women without a 3A in the SP and LP? Saying someone has to do a 2A while she's capable of the harder element is just that: holding her back.
Yes, it would have been better for Mao if she would have been capable of a consistent 3-3. Does that change the fact that a required 2A limits her when she would be capable of more? No. So if she does have a 3-3 or not has nothing to do with the 3A issue here.

So it took the ISU way too long to allow men to do quads as the solo jump in the SP. That was a mistake and they should have changed it earlier. But because of that they need to be unfair towards the ladies now too?
You're saying it like: the SP needs to reward skaters who have that exact set of skills (3-3, clean lutz). Other sets of skills (3A f.e.), should not be rewarded.
So Mao is the only woman in the world now who can (at least with a certain success rate) land a 3A? How unfair towards all other woman not capable of a 3A that she's allowed to jump it in the SP!:rolleye:
 

mary01

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
if we hoping to see more woman daring to attempt the 3A, the base value should definitely be higher, it's just such a difficult element and the points given just don't reflect it's difficulty, why would any skater go through the trouble of practicing it and risking bad injury if the base value doesn't reflect it's difficulty!

and I think it was VERY unfair rule to prohibit a woman to attempt the 3A in the sp, when the 3-3 was allowed!
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Skaters have different strengths, some are better with 3-3's, some with other jump0s, for example the 3A. Why does it make sense to you that skaters with a 3-3-should have a general advantage in the SP and the LP, but a 3A - being an extremly tough element, seldomly landed by a female - should not be allowed to give someone an advantage over other women without a 3A in the SP and LP?

It does give that skater an advantage, all else being equal.

It doesn't and shouldn't guarantee a win if another skater is better at most of the 6 other SP elements and/or at program components.

Quads are now worth quite a bit more in base mark than triple lutz or triple flip. But they don't give men a huge advantage in the SP if they can't put a triple toe afterward with good quality or perform them straight out steps or other connecting moves. That's one reason why the value of the quads was raised a few years ago.

Even a solo, telegraphed quad is still an advantage in a long program.

Now, suppose we have a hypothetical female skater who can land a clean quad. Let's even say it's a quad salchow, which is worth even more than quad toe.

Is it unfair to the quad skater that she is not currently allowed to do it anywhere in the short program? Well, yes, compared to the skater who is allowed to do triple axel in the short (as the combination or jump out of steps, if not the solo axel). But compared to all the other skaters who can't do either of those >3-revolution jumps, both have a big advantage in the LP as long as they can make use of it there.

Would quad girl still have a disadvantage if she's allowed to do a 4S+2T combo in the short (because she can't do 4S+3T), or solo 4S out of simple steps, and still loses to someone who has neither a quad nor a 3A because they're better at other things?

Is the answer to that, raise the value of the quad even further, give different values for women than for men, so that the skater with the hardedst jump will automatically win and GOEs or well-rounded skill sets don't matter?

Saying someone has to do a 2A while she's capable of the harder element is just that: holding her back.

And yet, as of 1998 all the men who could do triple axels were still required to do 2A in the short program. They did the 3A in the combination there, and the top guys pushed each other to do 3A+3T. It wasn't until short program competitions were ending up with four or five clean 3A+3T programs, and several guys were landing quads and quad combinations in the long program, that 3A as the solo axel (and quad out of steps) was allowed in the SP.
 

venlac

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Mao 3A is not even consistent in the first place, it not like she gain a lot of advantage. 3A value is even less than 3L - 3T

I don't agree. 3a2t's value point is higher than 3lz3t → yeah, i agree.
but... "3a base point should be higher than 3lz3t" Nonsense
3a is almost difficult jump, but 3lz-3t is that connects two triple jumps, also belong to the high level even among 33combinations.
3a score is higher than 3toe- 3toe. I think it's suitable
factor of goe is 100%, only triple axel.
And, in old scoring system, Ito Midori had 3a and 5 kind of triple jumps, but can not beat kristy yamaguchi

3a's the value point was continuously increased.
3A  7.5  → 7.5  → 8.2  → 8.5 (<6.0)  

It is enough, quite enough

3a jumper should be an unbeatable?
 
Last edited:

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
This is a endless debate. We had this discussion way back before Vancouver, and now that the 3Axel is not only allowed as a solo jump in the SP, but also has a HIGHER base value than before, still people are complaining it's not valued high enough. It's not enough that GOE's get factored lower for triples, too, except for the triple Axel. :scowl: Jeesh...

In any case, it's interesting how this quad is playing out. If trends continue it seems Vancouver is gonna be all about Mao's 3Axels vs. Yuna's triple-triples, this time with the rules clearly favoring Mao.
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
So it took the ISU way too long to allow men to do quads as the solo jump in the SP. That was a mistake and they should have changed it earlier. But because of that they need to be unfair towards the ladies now too?
You're saying it like: the SP needs to reward skaters who have that exact set of skills (3-3, clean lutz). Other sets of skills (3A f.e.), should not be rewarded.
So Mao is the only woman in the world now who can (at least with a certain success rate) land a 3A? How unfair towards all other woman not capable of a 3A that she's allowed to jump it in the SP!:rolleye:

This is the crux of what I think. I think it was a mistake to not allow elements because not everyone could do them and I am glad this is being fixed now. IMO anything should go jump-wise and if only one person can do it, then so be it. As someone else said, it is a competitive sport, not a group hug.

Therefore (again IMO) if a woman can do a solo quad jump in the SP it should be allowed. If a woman can do a quad-double in the SP it should be allowed. If a man can do a quad-quad it should be allowed. Let the (technical) cream rise. Why try to keep people close together in the short by forbidding certain jumps if they can be done? IMO if someone can do those jumps, they deserve to be ahead.

Not everyone can do Caroline Z's pearl spin (think when it was great, not now). In fact, no one could, at least not like her. It wasn't forbidden. Jumps IMO should not be different.

As to the title of the thread I think the current BV for the jump is ok.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
This is a endless debate. We had this discussion way back before Vancouver, and now that the 3Axel is not only allowed as a solo jump in the SP, but also has a HIGHER base value than before, still people are complaining it's not valued high enough. It's not enough that GOE's get factored lower for triples, too, except for the triple Axel. :scowl: Jeesh...

In any case, it's interesting how this quad is playing out. If trends continue it seems Vancouver is gonna be all about Mao's 3Axels vs. Yuna's triple-triples, this time with the rules clearly favoring Mao.

It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel. In fact, I could easily argue that the rules haven't been changed enough. The ISU effectively killed 3-3Lo combinations 4 years ago and have done nothing to reverse that trend. Another thing is that people argue that a 3Lz-2T should be worth more than a 3T-3T and a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Lz-3T.
 

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
It's only fair to have the rules favor Mao this time around, considering how ridiculously in favor of Yuna they were 3 years ago, when doing 3 double axels could potentially net you 6.5 points EACH and if you underrotated a 3A by 91 degrees you'd get credit for a bad double axel. In fact, I could easily argue that the rules haven't been changed enough. The ISU effectively killed 3-3Lo combinations 4 years ago and have done nothing to reverse that trend. Another thing is that people argue that a 3Lz-2T should be worth more than a 3T-3T and a 3A-2T should be worth more than a 3Lz-3T.

What? Are you telling me Mao couldn't do 3 double Axels back then? That rule favored EVERY skater. It was Mao's team's decision not to take advantage of it. Unlike the solo 3Axel rule, which favors only one particular skater at the moment. If anything it's 3/3's that are highly undervalued. But that's a whole another argument.

Even if the rules favored Yuna back in the day (which I would dispute), two wrongs don't make a right. It's not "fair" to Mao or any skater to give favors at all.
 

mateusp1

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
I just can't stop laughing with the nickname of "CarneAsada".

It has a very very very funny meaning in portuguese.

Is "CarneAsada" brazilian or from Portugal?
 
Last edited:
Top