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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
How is it fair to skaters who perform well while fully rotating their jumps, if skaters like Murakami are given medals despite not meeting technical standards? Figure skating is a SPORT, not an exhibition.

Underrotation is not Murakami's only problem. She has a horrible pick technique (similar to Caroline Zhang's), she has a pretty bad flutz, and she has problems with her double axel (she singled both attempts in her Worlds FS and the one attempt in her 4CC FS). Interesting in that the 2a is a required jump in the Ladies FS.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Is it the 2A or is it an axel type jump? Because I thought it was the latter.

I think Murakami actually does quite well with her tango LP. It's just marvelously constructed, with beautiful peaks and moments (seriously, Morosov and Mishin should watch this program to see what effective posing actually is). But Suzuki is just an unearthly performer. The way the program builds and builds to the choreo sequence is beautiful. And of course, the choreo sequence itself is just ... flight. She's flying over the ice. The Skate Gods haven't been too generous this season, but I'd love to see her win Worlds.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Is it the 2A or is it an axel type jump? Because I thought it was the latter.

I think Murakami actually does quite well with her tango LP. It's just marvelously constructed, with beautiful peaks and moments (seriously, Morosov and Mishin should watch this program to see what effective posing actually is). But Suzuki is just an unearthly performer. The way the program builds and builds to the choreo sequence is beautiful. And of course, the choreo sequence itself is just ... flight. She's flying over the ice. The Skate Gods haven't been too generous this season, but I'd love to see her win Worlds.

I think it's just an axel jump. If it was the former, she would have received zero points for that sequence.

I think Murakami doesn't get a ton of height on her jumps, so she tends to finish some of the rotation as she's landing, that could create some of the UR calls we've seen from her this season.

That said, I agree that it's a well-constructed program and I believe she is building toward a successful run in Sochi and beyond.
 

Leonardo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
ITA. Congrats to all the medalists, plus Christina and Zijun for a fine skate (luv them both :love:).

I'm not going to praise Mao even though I most definitely would like to, cause I'm sick of some people labelling me here as a Maobot. But I will say one thing; even with the URs and the edge call, Mao's performances in this competition moved alot of people and I think that means something.

If figure skating performances do not touch our hearts, what's the point in watching this sport anyway? Yes, fully rotated jumps with proper edges should be rewarded more than those which aren't since this is a sport. But otoh, figure skating is also a performance. It's a sport in which the audience also plays an important role. That's precisely why there are PCS; scores which I believe can only be subjective even with guidelines. As they are human, the judges will hand out PCS based on their impressions on a performance, just like the audience will evaluate a performance based on how it made them feel.

IMHO, I am sick of some 'fans' debating whether a jump was fully or under rotated. It's close to impossible to make that out when you're in the audience watching the skaters live. The audience can be moved or be amazed by what the skaters do, even if there's a slight UR here and there. Falls, step outs or other visible mistakes will distract appreciation and can ruin a performance more or less, cause those kinds of mistakes distracts them from the performance, making the audience feel down and sorry for the skaters. In other words, they're pulled back into reality from the beautiful world the skaters are trying so hard to create on the ice. But if not DGs, some slight UR or an edge call will not distract them at all. I've had my share of seeing competitions and ice shows live even in the best arena seats, so I know this as a fact.

Some of you seem to enjoy watching slo-mo vids over and over to accuse skaters of URs and wrong edges. I find that quite meaningless to be honest. We're not judges, we're not tech callers, we're not even critics so what's the point? It makes me wonder if those who do so really love this sport or care about the skaters. I think we should try to accept the skaters based on how their performances touched our hearts a bit more. Many of the girls touched my heart in various ways in this competition, I'm simply grateful to them. I'm sure they're all aware of their weak points much more than we do, and are trying to overcome them to become a better skaters. So what's the point in critisizing them so harshly?

I'm not against debating or discussing how you all feel about about the skaters and their performances. It's fun and that's what fans do. But concluding what some skaters cannot do in the future, pointing out how bad they are at what they do, and trying so hard to convince others to think in the same way seems nothing more than ego based childish talk to me. I'm not saying all of you here are like that. But some of you certainly are. I truely hope the skaters do not bother to access this forum and read such posts.

I couldn't agree more.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Exactly how did she outskate Suzuki at SC and 4CC? At 4CC they were pretty much neck and neck in the SP (though Kanako's flip was tight, she did have slightly higher levels on spins), and in the FS, Suzuki landed 6 triples and Murakami landed 5. They both singled an axel. I know you're all hung up about these "phantom < calls", but they wouldn't have changed the result at 4CC if Murakami's URs were called clean. The 3F that got a UR call looked fine, but the second 3L was without a doubt UR'ed. You nor I have access to what the technical specialist sees on replay, so we can only suggest that there were errors made, but ultimately it's their call and they are the ones qualified and with the resources to make that call.

Murakami didn't land 5 Triples at Skate Canada, she landed 7 and one of them was underrotated. I don't need to see the tech specialist video, I've seen them before and it doesn't add anything extra. High-def, slo-mo captures of the performances are all you need. Moreover, tech specialists are NOT trained in jump science. Until the ISU starts to understand the full extent of the mechanics and actually put it in their training seminars, most calls are lacking in validity. Tech panels make snap judgements that don't have enough real analysis.

Anyway, that aside, I think Murakami deserves higher PCS for her LP than Suzuki does for hers. Suzuki's program is nice and the final footwork sequence is wonderful, but a lot of the program still feels like "required elements", whereas Murakami's program is not only more difficult (because of the transitions) but also more effective because almost all of the movement feels well-tailored to the music.

I rate Suzuki higher on PCS for the SP, but Murakami's harder jump layout and better spins put her ahead still.
 

Laughing Man

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
I agree that her programs are lovely to watch with great energy and speed and artistry. But this is a sport, and if you don't perform technically clean elements, then you should not be as successful as those who do. Under CoP there are several skaters who wouldn't be as successful, like Kwan, due to URs and flutzes and the like, but it doesn't mean they're bad skaters... just not ideal for the current system.

I think people get hung up on UR for the reasons you said... their favourites are not winning in spite of seemingly lovely programs. Kanako is one of my favourites too, but I can concede her losing when she doesn't fully rotate her jumps, and it's good to hear that she can too and is working to improve that. Kanako is lucky that URs still get 70% of the value of the element. I think that's pretty fair for a jump that wasn't fully executed. And in many cases even if she weren't called as UR, she'd still not win.

ITA with most of you say. If I gave you the impression otherwise, that's my bad. Kanako sitll has lots of issues not just URs. But I think it's fair to say she's progressed alot over the years, at least as a performer. I'm not in any way against her scored being deducted because of her URs. That's totally fair, and I'm sure she knows it. However, if it were up to me, I wouldn't be so eager to say some skater like Kwan and Kanako aren't ideal for the current system. I would say it's the current system which isn't ideal in rewarding the skaters the way they really should. I'm not against CoP, but alot of those little complicated rules concerning mistakes which are quite hard to make out at first sight, do turn many people off from this sport. While UR freaks are knocking themselves out playing tech-panelist, more and more people are losing interest in this sport.

How is it fair to skaters who perform well while fully rotating their jumps, if skaters like Murakami are given medals despite not meeting technical standards? Figure skating is a SPORT, not an exhibition.

Of course I know skating is a sport. :rolleye:
Plus I very well understand the difference between an exhibition and a competition. However, as I've written in my former post which Leonardo kindly quoted (thank you), this sport is not just a sport but a performing sport. It's full of artistry and entertainment. While the skaters aim in perfecting their skills, they also try to create beauty and pleasure on the ice to watch. If it's just a sport, why dress up in costumes? Why do they have PCS? Why do they even need music to skate to?
The thing I don't get about people like you, are that you go on and on nitpicking on URs and edges, while you don't seem to criticize or bother to analyze falls, pops or step-outs as much, which are more crucial in damaging a performance. I mean seriously, do you prefer a fully rotated jump with a fall over a slightly under-rotated jump well landed? I don't.

I think it's just an axel jump. If it was the former, she would have received zero points for that sequence.

I think Murakami doesn't get a ton of height on her jumps, so she tends to finish some of the rotation as she's landing, that could create some of the UR calls we've seen from her this season.

That said, I agree that it's a well-constructed program and I believe she is building toward a successful run in Sochi and beyond.

It was actually supposed to be a 2A, but she's never succeeded that bit throughout the season (yet). Kanako has been saying she's not good at axels all along, so I think going for it in a sequence is pretty tough for her. Hope she can do it right at Worlds...but otoh, I think it may be difficult for her to overcome problems concerning 2As as long as she's working with Yamada. Yamada is basically a good coach for juniors, but I do not see her as an ideal coach at senior level. I think it would do Kanako better to work with another coach at least for a while. She's been with Yamada too long and I don't see much more Kanako can learn from her.

In the same sense, I so hope the Chinese Fed would allow Zijun to have a foreign coach in the future. Someone who can exteem her charms and extend them into higher artistry, not to mention improving her skills which I think she still has so much more potential hidden underneath. Has any Chinese lady ever had a foreign coach before, btw? They do hire foreign choreographers I think, but coaches??? :confused:

I couldn't agree more.

Thank you. I'm relieved to know that there are still fans who appreciate rather than criticize, respect rather than just evaluate skaters and their performances. :)
 

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
It was actually supposed to be a 2A, but she's never succeeded that bit throughout the season (yet). Kanako has been saying she's not good at axels all along, so I think going for it in a sequence is pretty tough for her. Hope she can do it right at Worlds...but otoh, I think it may be difficult for her to overcome problems concerning 2As as long as she's working with Yamada. Yamada is basically a good coach for juniors, but I do not see her as an ideal coach at senior level. I think it would do Kanako better to work with another coach at least for a while. She's been with Yamada too long and I don't see much more Kanako can learn from her.

In the same sense, I so hope the Chinese Fed would allow Zijun to have a foreign coach in the future. Someone who can exteem her charms and extend them into higher artistry, not to mention improving her skills which I think she still has so much more potential hidden underneath. Has any Chinese lady ever had a foreign coach before, btw? They do hire foreign choreographers I think, but coaches??? :confused:
Yamada coached Midori Ito to her World Title and OSM, so I think that she is actually a good coach, it's just Kanako that has some technique issues... But maybe working with a very IJS-friendly coach like Orser could help her...
 

volk

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Can we talk about Kanako Murakami some more?

She deserved Silver at this competition and she has now outskated Suzuki in all 3 competitions this season where they've been up against each other, IMO. It's really just these phantom < calls that are holding her back and I greatly dislike how she keeps being held down as the "3rd Japanese lady". Aside from the flutz, her skating is excellent across the board. Her transitions and spins are better than Suzuki's and her consistency is better at this point too.

As a fan I'm glad she's finally getting noticed. But I think her placement was fair this time. Akiko's presentation is still more sophisticated.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
I think we all know she has the potential; so hard though with compatriots so strong but I do like her programs and her genuine musicality.
 

Laughing Man

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Yamada coached Midori Ito to her World Title and OSM, so I think that she is actually a good coach, it's just Kanako that has some technique issues... But maybe working with a very IJS-friendly coach like Orser could help her...

Yes, Yamada was great with Midori. But back then, Yamada had focused almost only on her. I'm not even sure if she had any other students at the time. Midori even moved into Yamada's house to train. The case with Kanako is totally different, and Yamada has many other students she has to attend to now. Plus as you probably know, Midori had much more potential when it came to physical abilities than Kanako. Kanako if more a dancer type skater compared to Midori who was purely athletic. They're totally different types of skaters obviously. The other thing is, Midori used to disagree on lots of things with Yamada which often turned into huge fights. Midori was stubborun, always knew what she wanted and wouldn't give in (that's what she said herself looking back on her competing days). When I look at Kanako, I get a totally different impression. She seems to trust and respect Yamada with no doubts whatsoever. Kanako never even chooses her costumes but leaves that all to Yamada. That's why I think it may be a good time for her to leave Yamada soon (well, I'm sure she won't leave her at least till Olys season is over though). I think when you're with a coach for too long trusting him/her on everything, a skater's other hidden potentials may be overlooked and wasted. Changing coaches can introduce skaters to so many more new possibilities. When Mao went to Tat she became capable of much complex footwork; those Masquerade years sure paid off, she's even saying that she's more confident about her steps than she used to be of her jumps when she was younger. Although there were some troubles in the past, Dai never would've become the skater he is unless he worked with Morozov either I think. Yuna never would've become as great as she has if she didn't work with Orser...and yes, maybe Orser would be the ideal coach for Kanako to help her with her jumps... :think:
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
I think Machiko Yamada is a great mental coach. It's no accident that she was the first coach of many top skaters in Japan, including Midori, Mao, Miki and Kanako. I think it's really rare to find someone who has the gift to mentor children to have a mindset required to become a top athlete, so I really respect her for that.

But... she is an awful technical coach!! I mean, if only Mao had someone like Mishin or Nobuo Sato as her first coach, she wouldn't have the technical issues that she has now, though, it may well have been that without Machiko Yamada, she may not have ever dreamt of becoming an Olympian figure skater in the first place.

I think Machiko Yamada should continue to coach Kanako to nurture her mentally, but she should pair up with a competent technical coach who can teach Kanako to stroke and jump properly.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think Machiko Yamada should continue to coach Kanako to nurture her mentally, but she should pair up with a competent technical coach who can teach Kanako to stroke and jump properly.

I agree. Kanako does so many things amazingly well that it's a shame she doesn't work on some of the small details that make her skating look sloppy sometimes. She presents her programs superbly, her footwork and transitions are difficult, and she uses her edges well. With more polish she would be an equal to Yuna/Carolina/Mao at their best.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Murakami didn't land 5 Triples at Skate Canada, she landed 7 and one of them was underrotated. I don't need to see the tech specialist video, I've seen them before and it doesn't add anything extra. High-def, slo-mo captures of the performances are all you need. Moreover, tech specialists are NOT trained in jump science. Until the ISU starts to understand the full extent of the mechanics and actually put it in their training seminars, most calls are lacking in validity. Tech panels make snap judgements that don't have enough real analysis.

Anyway, that aside, I think Murakami deserves higher PCS for her LP than Suzuki does for hers. Suzuki's program is nice and the final footwork sequence is wonderful, but a lot of the program still feels like "required elements", whereas Murakami's program is not only more difficult (because of the transitions) but also more effective because almost all of the movement feels well-tailored to the music.

I rate Suzuki higher on PCS for the SP, but Murakami's harder jump layout and better spins put her ahead still.

Actually, three were under-rotated. That's how it was called. And one would assume that the same fairness is applied to all skaters. It's not a coincidence that Kanako continually gets called for UR's internationally. As far as the ISU tech specialists being un-trained in jump science and the like, there is no evidence to support you accusing tech specialists of not being trained in jump science outside of ISU seminars. But clearly, since they disagree with you, they must all be wrong. :rolleye:

One can only pray that the ISU hires you BOP to enlighten all the ill-informed tech specialists and save figure skating from its invalidities. ;)
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Here's a list of all the competitions where Murakami got URs.

3z<, 3f<+2t 2008 JGP ESP SP
3t<+2t< 2008 JGP ESP FS
3s+2lo+2lo< 2008 JGP GBR FS
2a< 2008 JGPF SP
1s+2t<, 2a<, 3s<+2t+2lo 2008 JGPF FS
3s< 2009 JGP CRO FS
2a< 2009 JGPF SP
3s+2lo+2lo< 2009 JGPF FS
3t+3t< 2010 JW SP
3f<, 2010 SA SP
3lo<, 3s+2lo<+2lo< 2010 SA FS
3t<+3t, 2010 NHK SP
3ze<, 3lo< 2s+2t<+2lo 2010 NHK FS
3t+3t< 2011 WORLDS SP
3t+3t<, 3lo< 2011 WORLDS FS
3f+3t<, 3lo<< 2011 COC SP
3lo<, 3f<, 3f<^2a, 3s<+2lo+2lo 2011 COC FS
3f+3t<< 2011 TEB SP
3ze< 2011 TEB FS
3f<, 3t+3t< 2012 WOLRDS FS
3t+3t<, 3f<< 2012 SC SP
3lo<+2lo, 3s<+2t+2lo, 3t< 2012 SC FS
3t+3t<, 3f< 2012 TEB SP
3lo<+2lo 2012 TEB FS
3f<, 2a< 2013 4CC FS

Please do not try to claim that ALL those tech teams were wrong.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Yamada coached Midori Ito to her World Title and OSM, so I think that she is actually a good coach, it's just Kanako that has some technique issues... But maybe working with a very IJS-friendly coach like Orser could help her...

Orser isn't great at teaching technique. Skaters who've done well under him (Kim, Fernandez) didn't really improve under him technique wise (Kim already had terrific jump technique, Fernandez was going for two quads in his FS before visiting Orser). Skaters that had technique issues (Gao and Rippon with their double/triple axel) tended to have those issues when they left. Orser is terrific at packaging and promoting PCS aspects, along with Wilsons David and Tracy.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Orser isn't great at teaching technique. Skaters who've done well under him (Kim, Fernandez) didn't really improve under him technique wise (Kim already had terrific jump technique, Fernandez was going for two quads in his FS before visiting Orser). Skaters that had technique issues (Gao and Rippon with their double/triple axel) tended to have those issues when they left. Orser is terrific at packaging and promoting PCS aspects, along with Wilsons David and Tracy.

Is Nobu Sato considered a good technician?
 

Laughing Man

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Is Nobu Sato considered a good technician?

Basically yes, at least in Jpn...but for most skaters it seems to take a bit longer to become consistant when they're being tutored by him (Nakano, Kozuka). Sato said he always makes his pupils go over basics on and on. Maybe that's one of the reasons I don't recall that many of his skaters getting seriously injured in the past, which is good. But many think that Nagakubo may be better in teaching jumps; the fact Akiko achieved a 3-3 finally last season at her age impressed many people.

As for Orser, even if Kim and Javi had good techs before they went to him, I still think that without him, their jumps may never have become as stable as they are now. Plus you should never forget how dramatically Yuzu improved his techs after he started working with him.
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
As for Orser, even if Kim and Javi had good techs before they went to him, I still think that without him, their jumps may never have become as stable as they are now. Plus you should never forget how dramatically Yuzu improved his techs after he started working with him.

Yuzuru was pretty impressive technically at 2012 Worlds. His 4T and 3A were very, very consistent at that time. I'm not seeing this huge improvement in Yuzuru's skating since he went to Orser. The 4S isn't working so well so far at that's the only jump he tries since he went to Orser.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Please do not try to claim that ALL those tech teams were wrong.

When everyone is taught wrong, it's hardly unthinkable.

Not ALL of the tech calls were wrong, but I feel the majority of them in recent years are. Murakami pre-rotates a lot of her jumps less than usual and the tech panels never seem to actually pay attention to where the jump starts and look at the actual air rotation she is getting. They just look at the landing as if she had taken off from the typical spot on the ice and call it underrotated based on that.

Murakami has never done a 3T-3T combination in her competitive senior career that should be called <. Her 3F and 3Lo at 4CC were fine. Her 3Lo and 3Sal at Skate Canada were fine, and her 3F in the SP there was only <, not <<. Last season at Cup of China she got unfairly slammed when her 3F+3T combo was complete and the 3Lo was only <, not <<. Then 4 calls in the LP, when the second Flip and the Salchow were fine.
 
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