2013 4cc Free Dance | Page 11 | Golden Skate

2013 4cc Free Dance

hitchem

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
It's odd that Tessa didn't look to be favoring her leg, or even rub or massage her leg at all during the break. Or am I missing something? If she was cramping, it doesn't look like it was too severe.
 

icefan1005

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
And what exactly is the "health problem"? Scott skated over to the judges and asked to re-start. Where did he explain the health problem?

A leg cramp at two different 4CC's? Not buying it.

So, does "Carmen" put a stop to the old argument that D/W skate to "easier, well-known music" and V/M skate to "difficult, more obscure music"?



But she did stop?

And yet Charlie keeps going, with asthma, no excuses there...

Don't think Charlie was stuck in a wheelchair like Tessa was in '09 & had to have rehabilitation to learn how to walk again. You really can't compare Tessa's CECS & Charlie's athsma. They're both different conditions that require different kinds of treatment. It could be that her cramps flare up now & then; we don't really know the extent of her condition right now.
 

icefan1005

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
It's odd that Tessa didn't look to be favoring her leg, or even rub or massage her leg at all during the break. Or am I missing something? If she was cramping, it doesn't look like it was too severe.

She was kinda favoring her left leg then removed her skates at the KnC.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I agree! We don't really know what happened though since some fans think think it was Scott who had a problem.

Where the lift was to have come, they got into position, then Scott was gesturing with his left hand, as if he had a cramp and wasn't able to have enough power in that hand to do the lift. He was also flexing that left hand over and over on the podium.

I don't think Tessa was having trouble breathing, I think it was Scott's hand that was the problem.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
FWIW:
Tennis has a rule allowing for medical time-outs, doesn't it?
I think the legal break is several minutes long (don't know exactly), during which a trainer is permitted to attend to cramping (or whatever ails the player).
Just sayin'.
And I'm pretty sure that tennis players at the very top of the sport have been known to take such time-outs when necessary.

Tennis players at the very top of the sport do take medical time-outs, but not without controversy. At the 2012 US Open, Novak Djokovic was down 2-5 in the decisive fifth set to Andy Murray when he decided to take a medical time-out, stopping play when Murray was one _game_ away from winning (and I believe it was Murray's turn to serve next, and it was very likely that he would win the next game and thus the tournament). Fans were livid at the medical time-out--they thought it was unsportsmanlike to delay Murray's inevitable victory--and Djokovic was heartily booed (which seemed to not fluster him a bit).
 

icebeauty

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Don't think Charlie was stuck in a wheelchair like Tessa was in '09 & had to have rehabilitation to learn how to walk again. You really can't compare Tessa's CECS & Charlie's athsma. They're both different conditions that require different kinds of treatment. It could be that her cramps flare up now & then; we don't really know the extent of her condition right now.

I agree that they are two completely medical issues and to attempt to compare which one affects a skater more would be silly. However, both are conditions that are "severe" an require a lot of work for an athlete to learn to deal with. Tessa has had 2 surgeries now, she's dealt with flare-ups, and i know that it's been a battle for her (and Scott) to get to where they are now b/c of her condition...i'm sure she knows when she needs to lighten up on training or what she can push through (or at least she should by this point), but I'm just surprised that after all these years when she has skated through the pain, they stopped a program...if this a flare-up/issue that started due to over-training they should have withdrawn. otherwise i would have preferred that they skate through it (albeit with a probably sub-par skate). This is where I think you can make the comparison about a cramping and breathing issues...a break becomes an obvious benefit to the skater. Of course we don't know Tessa's full situation right now, but she's been competing long enough that she should be able to tell if she be competing or resting. side note - i'm just surprised that she did not rub/massage her legs during the break...she took off her skates in the KnC, but she does often enough that i wasn't surprised (it helps relieve the pressure a lot faster) so to me as a audience member nothing is out of the ordinary. so i'm still slightly skeptical and more convinced that it was Scott's decision to stop...the two of them are known to verbally communicate to each during their skates (in think in part due to Tessa's condition), but it just looked like Tessa was ready to go in the lift, but Scott wasn't...

It'll be interesting to see how these two teams match up at worlds. they really are a step above, but right now, i give D/W the advantage.
 
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leil

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
I agree that they are two completely medical issues and to attempt to compare which one affects a skater more would be silly. However, both are conditions that are "severe" an require a lot of work for an athlete to learn to deal with. Tessa has had 2 surgeries now, she's dealt with flare-ups, and i know that it's been a battle for her (and Scott) to get to where they are now b/c of her condition...i'm sure she knows when she needs to lighten up on training or what she can push through (or at least she should by this point), but I'm just surprised that after all these years when she has skated through the pain, they stopped a program...if this a flare-up/issue that started due to over-training they should have withdrawn. otherwise i would have preferred that they skate through it (albeit with a probably sub-par skate). This is where I think you can make the comparison about a cramping and breathing issues...a break becomes an obvious benefit to the skater. Of course we don't know Tessa's full situation right now, but she's been competing long enough that she should be able to tell if she be competing or resting. side note - i'm just surprised that she did not rub/massage her legs during the break...she took off her skates in the KnC, but she does often enough that i wasn't surprised (it helps relieve the pressure a lot faster) so to me as a audience member nothing is out of the ordinary. so i'm still slightly skeptical and more convinced that it was Scott's decision to stop...the two of them are known to verbally communicate to each during their skates (in think in part due to Tessa's condition), but it just looked like Tessa was ready to go in the lift, but Scott wasn't...

It'll be interesting to see how these two teams match up at worlds. they really are a step above, but right now, i give D/W the advantage.


so knowing all that tessa's been through with her legs and how devastating it can get, you'd rather her just push through it -- skate while injured and make it worse? if she's injured, she's entitled to stop and regroup because the point isn't to skate a full but subpar program and make a few fans happy but to actually protect her legs and the rest of the season.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
If the problem IS Tessa's legs and she feels a need to rest mid-FD, then V/M will have to accept that they will get lower PCS scores than they would if they gave an ininterrupted performance. Judges aren't going to give them 'pity points' to boost them up over their competitors.

I am not convinced, however, that Tessa was having the problem. I thought it was Scott's hand.
 

icebeauty

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
so knowing all that tessa's been through with her legs and how devastating it can get, you'd rather her just push through it -- skate while injured and make it worse? if she's injured, she's entitled to stop and regroup because the point isn't to skate a full but subpar program and make a few fans happy but to actually protect her legs and the rest of the season.

no, i don't want her to make it worse...but if she really is suffering from an injury that is bad that they have to stop, i think they should just stop and not finish the program. I think if she really needed to protect her legs/needed the break b/c the issue was that bad then they shouldn't have continued. I think we would understand that situation a lot better. Tessa has skated for years with CECS and didn't have surgery until the pain was so bad that she was basically told that if she didn't have the first surgery back in the 08-09 season that she would have to quit (and she would difficulty walking for basically the rest of her life) which is why she finally chose to have the surgery. otherwise, up until that point, she skated through extreme pain (i remember reading that she could only skate/keep her skates on for short increments of time b/c the pain was so bad and she would cry at practice).
CECS is something that normally doesn't require surgery unless you are engaged in something that exacerbates it (i.e. being a competitive figure skater), and Tessa has had 2 surgeries. At this point if the condition is still THAT bad that she has to stop during a competition and couldn't skate through it than she should have stopped. there is a time to skate/fight through pain and there's a time not to...i'm just not buying the excuse because of Tessa's history of skating through the pain...

(It's because of her CECS that i respect and admire Tessa so much, it's not a condition to be taken lightly, and for her to come back from two surgeries and still be the creme of the crop is truly remarkable) - to be honest, i accept Scott having a hand/arm cramp as the reason to stop and restart and them not continuing into the lift over Tessa having leg cramps but at this point, the leg cramp story is out...there's no going back...

---
the reason why i made the comparison to breathing issues, skaters with asthma or who are competing with an illness will probably have difficulty breathing, but have learned to deal with it and skate on until the end of a program, but that's not a reason for them to stop...they might not be able to do their best, but we're seen a lot of skaters push through it. On the topic of skating through injury...2 years ago at the 2011 US Nationals, Joshua Farris BROKE his ankle during his FS...and he finished (granted at the time he thought he just twisted it after a bad landing, but he was still in enough pain he could have stopped, but he didn't). I respect skaters who stop/WD due to injury but i also know that more often than not, they will push through to finish the competition...
now, a hand/arm issue for Scott during their performance is a good enough reason why they didn't go into the lift/had to stop. i accept that they were allowed to go back and repeat the lift since Tessa's feet never left the ice, but i think it shouldn't come without consequences (i.e. Trankov having issues with his costume/arms back at the worlds with Mukhortova where they cut the sleeves on his outfit apart...but even then, didn't they lose points?)
a hand/arm issue prevents V/M from doing the lift but it doesn't give a season why they couldn't keep going (and just lose those points) b/c you can still skate the rest of the program...saying it was Tessa's legs gives them a reason/excuse to stop and be allowed to go back to repeat the element after a break...
 
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TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
so knowing all that tessa's been through with her legs and how devastating it can get, you'd rather her just push through it -- skate while injured and make it worse? if she's injured, she's entitled to stop and regroup because the point isn't to skate a full but subpar program and make a few fans happy but to actually protect her legs and the rest of the season.

I don't think anyone is saying that Tessa should have risked serious injury by continuing. The discussion appears to center on the nature of the "adverse condition" and whether or not a restart should have been allowed.

I don't think anyone has come right out and said it, so I will: I'm not buying the official story. At least not yet. I reserve the right to change my mind should more definitive information be revealed.
 

Icey

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Why isn't it required that the reason for the stoppage is a part of the protocols.
 

blackswanphoto

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
People just do not want to believe that sweet ol' classy Tessa is above using gamesmanship. She may become the Azarenka of skating.
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
FREE DANCE - RESULT & VIDEOS (Updated)

1. Meryl DAVIS & Charlie WHITE (USA) - 187.36 Free Dance, 2nd Copy, Interview
2. Tessa VIRTUE & Scott MOIR (CAN) - 184.32 Free Dance, 2nd Copy
3. Madison CHOCK & Evan BATES (USA) - 160.42 Free Dance
4. Maia SHIBUTANI & Alex SHIBUTANI (USA) - 159.97 Free Dance
5. Piper GILLES & Paul POIRIER (CAN) - 157.83 Free Dance
6. Nicole ORFORD & Thomas WILLIAMS (CAN) - 139.10 Free Dance
7. Cathy REED & Chris REED (JPN) - 131.04 Free Dance
8. Danielle OBRIEN & Gregory MERRIMAN (AUS) - 123.88 Free Dance
9. Xiaoyang YU & Chen WANG (CHN) - 108.82 Free Dance
10. Anna NAGORNYUK & Viktor KOVALENKO (UZB) - 107.02 Free Dance
11. Emi HIRAI & Marien DE LA ASUNCION (JPN) - 105.56 Free Dance
12. Bryna OI & Taiyo MIZUTANI (JPN) - 89.80 Free Dance
13. Pilar MAEKAWA & Leonardo MAEKAWA (MEX) - 85.02

Complete Final Warm-Up Group

Medal Ceremony: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
 

leil

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
I don't think anyone is saying that Tessa should have risked serious injury by continuing. The discussion appears to center on the nature of the "adverse condition" and whether or not a restart should have been allowed.

I don't think anyone has come right out and said it, so I will: I'm not buying the official story. At least not yet. I reserve the right to change my mind should more definitive information be revealed.

the poster i was responding to said that that he/she believed tessa was injured but wanted her to skate through it anyway because that's the kind of sportsmanship he/she respects.
 

icebeauty

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
the poster i was responding to said that that he/she believed tessa was injured but wanted her to skate through it anyway because that's the kind of sportsmanship he/she respects.

actually that's not what i was saying...i was saying that Tessa has skated through worse which is why i'm not buying the leg cramps story...

I was trying to explain that for the "leg injury" to be plausible, IMO, it would have to be so bad that they couldn't continue, period. Furthermore, if it's something sustained in training/Tessa was having flare-ups I would think they would/should have withdrawn...this is with Tessa's history being taken into account. If she was already having leg issues going into this competition, they shouldn't have skated. She should at this point in her career be smart enough about her condition to know what she can and cannot skate through and what will worsen the problem. If she was healthy enough to be at the competition then either the problem is no worse than normal or manageable enough that she shouldn't have to stop...That's why i'm having a problem with the reason the team is providing. Trust me, if it was Scott who had a problem or really any other reason, i'd be fine with it. considering Tessa's lack of a reaction during the break in regards to her legs, i'm doubtful/skeptical that the story is the truth.
To me, the video seems to reveal that it was Scotts decision to not go into the lift/stop the program. So if it was his arm rather than Tessa's legs that was the problem, I'm actually very fine with the situation (although that leads into a whole other discussion about how cramps result...which was started earlier this afternoon...in regard sto hydration, poor training/lack or rest, etc) b/c the fact that they could do the rest of the program including lifts without much incident is applaudable especially with regards to the risks involved.
(before the leg cramps were revealed to be the problem, and we thought it was a breathing issue, i was fine with it -- at least in regards to how the situation was handled. I just chose to point out instances in my morning posts where skaters have fought through difficulty breathing and that we'd be going down a slippery slope if "needing to catch your breath" is going to be a plausible reason going forward)

and also, to say that having a skater skate through pain/injury the kind of sportsmanship i respect is entirely false. I use to dance, and have had my share of mishaps on stage, some were just embarrassing, others involved blood (cuts/scratches) or resulted in some ugly bruises, and some were just hell. i know i've danced through injuries that i really shouldn't have but i was too stubborn to stop - on stage/take time off - classes/rehearsals...and trust me, i don't recommend it to anyone...it's not intelligent to do that to your body.
 
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