2013 Junior Worlds Men FS | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2013 Junior Worlds Men FS

chuckm

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Excuse my ranting, but WHY IS THERE A LIMIT OF THREE SPOTS FOR A COUNTRY THAT'S DOMINATING LIKE JAPAN?!
*rant over :)

At 2012 JW, there were 3 men and they finished 9th (Tanaka), 11th (Hino) and 12th (Uno), so they got only two entries for 2013. THAT'S why they don't have 3 spots--they weren't dominating!

And BTW, the two Japanese men finished 7th (Uno) and 10th (Hino) this year, so only two spots for 2014.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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I don't want people to think of me as a Jason hater because that certainly is not the case, I admire his talent and like his personality. Tastes differ and everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. I just felt he deservedly placed 2nd at this competition and that ubers saying he totally gave the title away with the SP might not have been looking at the bigger picture. Anyways, to me, Josh fits the mold of how young promising male figure skating stars have generally skated and looked like in the past...idk if it's the ponytail, blue velor outfits, or the gumby moves but Jason's skating does not carry the same kind of masculinity as Josh for me and for whatever reason, I associate masculinity with power so in my mind, I associate Josh as being a more powerful skater than Jason which I think should be reflected in part of the PCS mark and why I think they deserve to have comparable PCS. I get that isn't the most PC thing to say and Jason's flexy moves probably require a ton of strength and power, it perhaps more speaks to the fact that watching him, I am not reminded of past skaters and his skating represents something very new and unique which I am not used to. Perhaps he will set the new standard for men's figure skating in years to come, he certainly has the ability, and if that is the case I think I will become a bigger fan of his in the future. But for now, I guess he's a bit of a very talented enigma for me, whereas watching Josh skate I see similarities to young Boitano, Lysacek, Buttle. But anyways, I'm just so glad they all delivered!!

And you're entitled to your opinion as well; so I totally get and respect your reasons for liking Josh.

That said, I'm sure that some here might take my take here as being a blind Jason stan, but hear me out here.

In my view, Jason has a different kind of power. And yes, his flexibility transitions takes a lot of core power. I think anyone who takes yoga or pilates can appreciate how tough it is to not only hold Jason's positions but do it with the extension he does them. If Jason wasn't a figure skater, I actually think he would do great as a modern/ballet dancer. Speaking of which, if you watch the male dancers of the New York City ballet, I don't think you would say they are less masculine. They show a quiet, fierce power that is projected to the audience. That is exactly why, despite not having a triple axel, that Jason managed to get a standing ovation at Greensboro.

Jason is not like Julia L. who likes to do flexible moves for the sake of doing them. Every extension/flex move has a purpose, a detail to the overall program. That y-spiral I pointed out earlier, for example hits a with a rising crescendo in the music then bam, on the next beat he hits that 3Z. Doris mentioned him doing moves to the beat, not the melody, if you count 1, 2, 3, 4 then you can see why he chooses to do certain moves at certain times to the program.

Also, as the Eurosport commentator noted, Jason manages to skate to interesting music and manages to not let it over take him. Skating to Prince was not easy -- and I have to admit I wasn't enamored with it like I was with his program last season -- but he seem to put it all together at JW even with the big error. The boy was fierce. And a lot of people liked it. :biggrin:

And actually, when you think about it Prince was sort of a strange enigma himself, I mean the guy went by a symbol! And he wasn't "masculine" per society's standards. But yet he had this way of drawing people in. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6rez4_the-question-of-u-1990_music#.UTLhyxm4BO4

So it's actually kind of appropriate Jason skated to his music.
 

ks777

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Because killing skating off in developing countries is not a particularly good idea.

Japan is doing fine as it is.



Masculinity is not part of the PCS criteria. :rolleye:

(And judging aside, this kind of narrow-minded gender policing makes me really sad. You're expecting skaters to conform to your idea of masculinity and that's really discriminatory.)

But ladies are judged by how elegant(feminine) they are?
 

Snoopy15

On the Ice
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Feb 27, 2012
At 2012 JW, there were 3 men and they finished 9th (Tanaka), 11th (Hino) and 12th (Uno), so they got only two entries for 2013. THAT'S why they don't have 3 spots--they weren't dominating!

And BTW, the two Japanese men finished 7th (Uno) and 10th (Hino) this year, so only two spots for 2014.

Thanks for the information.
I'm honestly think I'm just upset that Tanaka wasn't competing; he's my favorite of the upcoming Japanese skaters. :(
But all in all, great competition.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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I leave this thread alone for a few hours and suddenly the gender police are in here casting aspersions over Jason's "masculinity" vs Josh's.

Rude. Two fine, handsome young men, with different skating styles, who just had the most fabulous competition of their lives, and some people want to pick at their silly, narrow-minded definitions of "masculine".

Is Jason unusually flexible for a man? Yes, he is. He's worked hard for it. (It's all Joshua's fault anyway :p.) Does Jason have a very nice ponytail? Yes, he does. He likes it. Does Jason wear blue velvet pants? Well, unfortunately, yes. (I liked the black pants better.) I'm not entirely sure what any of this has to do with his "masculinity".

Anyhow, I've just got the videos loaded, so I'm going to head off into dreamy-eyed happyland to watch my two favourite male Americans skate. And I'm going to enjoy every second of both of them, because they both laid down stunning programs in the very best of their own, individual styles.
 

WeakAnkles

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Aug 1, 2011
But ladies are judged by how elegant(feminine) they are?

LOL but it kinda retrograde and downright silly to call it "Ladies" figure skating and not "Women." By that logic it should be the "Gentlemen's Long Program," etc. It is a double standard.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
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I leave this thread alone for a few hours and suddenly the gender police are in here casting aspersions over Jason's "masculinity" vs Josh's.

Rude. Two fine, handsome young men, with different skating styles, who just had the most fabulous competition of their lives, and some people want to pick at their silly, narrow-minded definitions of "masculine".

Is Jason unusually flexible for a man? Yes, he is. He's worked hard for it. (It's all Joshua's fault anyway :p.) Does Jason have a very nice ponytail? Yes, he does. He likes it. Does Jason wear blue velvet pants? Well, unfortunately, yes. (I liked the black pants better.) I'm not entirely sure what any of this has to do with his "masculinity".

We may have crossed swords in the past, but I am in complete agreement with you on this one. Elegance and masculinity are not mutually exclusive.

Brown's performance reminded me of John Curry... my favorite male skater ever.
 

silverlake22

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Nov 12, 2009
But ladies are judged by how elegant(feminine) they are?

If they are Finnish then yes. And from what I've gathered, most people feel Cesario deserved to medal or win this event because she was elegant and feminine and that alone should be enough to have her beat "robotic" Julia and "gangly and sloppy" Anna, even though they only beat her because they held their spins for the right amount of time and rotated their triple jumps, so, arguably, yes. And when Ando won Worlds, both times, people complained about how she was not elegant and had no artistry and just jumps I can continue.

Anyways I think Jason's choices of music this season lend him to be seen as "artistic" whereas how many times have we seen a teenage boy skate to Rachmaninoff? And I think that makes a difference. So I think some of the "Jason deserves way higher PCS than everyone else at this event" is due to his packaging and program choices, and that if some of these other skaters had programs set to similar music with the same quality of choreography then people might think THEY are really artistic and deserving of high PCS, with their skating remaining of the same quality. Anyways, if anything I feel Omori was a bit hosed on PCS - 10 points below Jason and about 8 below Josh, that is a bit much IMO.
 

Skater Boy

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Feb 24, 2012
Jason Brown is the artist imho; I am not sure I wold say he isn't masculine. I do find the ponytail (actually it is called an atittude) is distracting and not particular helpful in creating a look - maybe a chin length cut might work better. Josh and Jason will have a great future dualing each other; but time is not in their favour to make the olympics - certainly not both but maybe one of them . The US men just killed the long program and wow they owned the podium and then some.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Anyways I think Jason's choices of music this season lend him to be seen as "artistic" whereas how many times have we seen a teenage boy skate to Rachmaninoff? And I think that makes a difference. So I think some of the "Jason deserves way higher PCS than everyone else at this event" is due to his packaging and program choices, and that if some of these other skaters had programs set to similar music with the same quality of choreography then people might think THEY are really artistic and deserving of high PCS, with their skating remaining of the same quality. Anyways, if anything I feel Omori was a bit hosed on PCS - 10 points below Jason and about 8 below Josh, that is a bit much IMO.

Jason is not getting/deserves high PCS because he is "choosing" programs with interesting choreography + different music choices. He deserves high PCS scores because he can actually skate to the choreography AS intended for those programs.

And while Liebestraum is not a major warhorse compared to others, is a popular choice of skating music -- after all, Mao Asada skated to that music just last season. But you don't see people comparing Jason's Lieberstraum to Mao's. And oh yeah, that performance in 2011 Nationals that brought the house down? That was to Puccini's Violin Fantasy which features "Nessum Dorma," which has becoming an annoying warhorse in the last few years --- Denney and Coughlin gave us the electric guitar version!

And different doesn't always win points with the judges. The Shibutanis' attempt to do polka to Peruvian music has not exactly gone all that well, for example. Execution matters greatly.

As to whether Josh or Shotoro could score the same scores with the same choreography/music choices...the bigger question is would they be able to do the choreography, again, as intended in the first place? That's the point that Ziggy and others have tried to point out in this discussion. To do choreography to a song like "The Question of U" which has a very vague melody in parts, would be quite impressive for someone at the senior level let alone at the junior level.

Josh has a lot to bring to the table -- big jumps, great skating skills, good flow. But Jason has the edge on choreography. As the Eurosport commentator said (Nicky, I think), "It's to die for."
 
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karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
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Maybe I'll just throw this from Jason in here.

"I was so happy for Josh," he said. "I didn't exactly see his skate, but the [crowd] reaction was amazing, and I was so proud of him. I knew that Shotaro was in second, and I was just really excited that we had a chance to be the top three."
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
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Dec 27, 2009
Maybe I'll just throw this from Jason in here.

Good stuff. It's clear Josh and Jason respect each other and it's more of a friendly rivalry.

Which segways to the point that I am defending Jason and his strengths in general, not that Josh didn't deserve to win here or to dismiss his strengths. He has many, as I pointed out. And really they are both better for having this rivalry than not.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
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Sep 10, 2009
Masculinity is not part of the PCS criteria. :rolleye:

And judging aside, this kind of narrow-minded gender policing makes me really sad.
Yet they still have and judge Men and Ladies no matter how sad you are. You make its sound like that fs is some bathroom facilities in a Russian gay bar: with "Men" and "Women" signs that no one follows.
Bravo! It's 2013. There are gay men and straight men (and probably bisexual men) skating. Who cares? I just want to see good skating. And Jason Brown is extraordinarily good, particularly in his musicality. But if both men continue to progress and improve, I see a terrific rivalry that will benefit ALL skating fans. Not matter who they sleep with!
I too want that people would stop bringing LGBT rights stuff every time the word "masculinity" comes into the conversation. By doing this they substitute one issue with another. Lame as internet trolling. There are open gays who look like Gareth Thomas. Is there anyone who would say the word "masculinity" doesn't suit him? The point is we still have Men and Ladies as two separate segments. If boys start skating girlish stuff in girlish outlook, than why to have two different segments in the first place I wonder. Either we don't, or there should be some line not to cross and some standards to follow.

This user uploaded guys from French Eurosport in a little better quality:
www.youtube.com/user/tsuyuhasport/videos?view=0
 

karne

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I thought it was very sweet of Jason to say how proud he was of Josh. I bet Josh is feeling just as proud the other way around. I find it quite adorable that they're each other's biggest fans.

I don't know if this article was ever posted here, but it's my favourite. A joint interview in the off-season. I would quote my favourite parts, but I would end up quoting the whole thing. But I think this is important:

We asked each boy to say what he likes about the other's skating.

"I could go on and on," Brown said. "His jumps are to die for."

"Why, thank you," Farris said.

"His triple Axel is, to me, the best in the world," Brown said. "I could watch it over and over. And his skating skills are amazing."

Farris laughed. "I'm trying to get to where yours are," he said.

Brown went on. "When I was younger, Josh was like a rubber band and super flexible, and Kori (Brown's coach) would say, 'Look at that, look how flexible he is.' And that's why I became so flexible."

"I love the expression you have on the ice, the carriage you have on the ice," Farris said to Brown. "When you step on the ice, you grab everybody; everybody stares at you."


EDIT: And my other favourite passage.

Having finished one-two at so many competitions, we asked if the boys had ever imagined finishing in first and second at the senior level at the U.S. championships.

"That would be a dream come true," Brown said. "That's how I always hoped and dreamed it would be. It would be unbelievable. And then we could go to worlds!"

"2014 Worlds, we're going," Farris said. "That's our goal."

"That would be the best," Brown said. "That would be so exciting."
 
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Jammers

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Good to hear Jason and Josh both looking to 2014 and saying out loud that they want to go 1-2 and go to Worlds. With the Senior US men so inconsistent they have a chance though it's a slight one.
 

sk8starz343

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Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Jason Brown is the artist imho; I am not sure I wold say he isn't masculine. I do find the ponytail (actually it is called an atittude) is distracting and not particular helpful in creating a look - maybe a chin length cut might work better. Josh and Jason will have a great future dualing each other; but time is not in their favour to make the olympics - certainly not both but maybe one of them . The US men just killed the long program and wow they owned the podium and then some.


Jason has had that ponytail since he was a little kid. I don't think it's going anywhere soon :p
 

Eislauf

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Nov 26, 2012
Jason has had that ponytail since he was a little kid. I don't think it's going anywhere soon :p

I don't mind the ponytail, but every time I see Jason give another mesmerizing performance, I find myself wishing that his team would upgrade his costuming to something that looks more modern and sophisticated, shows off his gorgeous extensions and lines and says "Gold Medalist" or "World Champion".

Pretty much all of the Japanese Senior men have costumes that are sophisticated, creative and expensive-looking. Daisuke in particular has skated in predominantly black costumes with punk-y ripped seams, slashed cut-outs, bold appliques and unusual seaming. They heighten his lyrical magic on the ice and look modern and directional, which isn't surprising given Japan's worldwide reputation for avant-garde fashion and design.
 
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Jaana

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Congratulations to the medalists and especially to Farris for his gold medal!!! Hopefully he and Brown will skate well in next season as a senior skaters. It is great that Brown managed to jump the triple axels, it remains to be seen whether that continues next season. My guess is that the judges might look more closely whether the necessary rotations are fullfilled, perhaps. Hopefully he could get the triple axel more effortless looking and also more speed into his skating.
 
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Art&Sport

Medalist
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Apr 28, 2011
Congratulations to the U.S. junior men!

And thanks to Mao88 for posting all the youtube videos!

I really like Mikhail Kolyada (he's like a very young Mikhail Baryshnikov). Too bad that his sp was chacked.

There's also something about Kolyada that reminds me of Ilia Kulik (perhaps the rosy cheeks and the athleticism). Of course, Kolyada is fairly young and still developing, and he needs to gain more consistency on his jumps, etc., but I really enjoy his lyrical style. :)
 
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