2013 Worlds Men LP | Page 59 | Golden Skate

2013 Worlds Men LP

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Still not deserving 9.5 for PE for that many visible errors (OK, so it WASN'T a 9.75, but STILL, that mark is totally off the wall for the EXECUTION of that program).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Can you name a single competition in which Lambiel and Buttle skated as poorly as Chan did in the LP and still won?

2005 Worlds LP was pretty darn close - for BOTH Lambiel and Buttle in comparison to Chan.

Lambiel (1A, 4T-3T, 3L, 2A, 4T, 2Z-3T, 1F, 3S-2T -- 2 quads, 4 clean triples - no 3F/3Z/3A) didn't fare much better than Chan (4T-3T, 4T, 3Z-fall, 3A<fall, 3L, 3F-3S stepout, 2Z-2T, 2A -- 2 quads, 3 clean triples). Hard to say who was technically worse -- Lambiel didn't fall twice, but he popped two triples (the axel and flip) to just singles, and turned two triples (the axel and lutz) to doubles. And unlike Chan, he actually WON the freeskate in spite of 4 major errors.

In the same FS, Buttle won silver (and placed 2nd in the FS) in spite of 2 falls and only 5 triples (3F+3T, 3A-fall, 3S, 3A, 3L-fall, 3Z-2T, 2A, 2A), including only 1 clean axel -- IMO, this is a worse skate technically than Lambiel's/Chan's which at least had 2 quads to make up for the errors.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2005/wc05_Men_FS_scores.pdf
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
After rewatching Patrick's and Denis' free skates, I do not change my initial notion that PChiddy fully deserves his title. If anyone received the most inflated score and was most held up by the judges in this competition, it's Denis not Patrick.

Actually the one most gifted by PCS by the judges was Takahashi (8th best TES in the SP, 13th best TES in the LP... and 6th overall). But yes, Ten was given extraordinarily high PCS (to be given the same SS as Takahashi and higher PE/IN is kinda ridiculous, even if he did skate clean).
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
2005 Worlds LP was pretty darn close - for BOTH Lambiel and Buttle in comparison to Chan.

Lambiel (1A, 4T-3T, 3L, 2A, 4T, 2Z-3T, 1F, 3S-2T -- 2 quads, 4 clean triples - no 3F/3Z/3A) didn't fare much better than Chan (4T-3T, 4T, 3Z-fall, 3A<fall, 3L, 3F-3S stepout, 2Z-2T, 2A -- 2 quads, 3 clean triples). Hard to say who was technically worse -- Lambiel didn't fall twice, but he popped two triples (the axel and flip) to just singles, and turned two triples (the axel and lutz) to doubles. And unlike Chan, he actually WON the freeskate in spite of 4 major errors.

Actually, Lambiel had three major errors, not four. The second axel was an intentionally planned double axel, it's obvious when you actually watch the program (set-up of the 2A is different and much less telegraphed compared to his usual setup to the 3A) and Lambiel rarely (if ever) goes for 2 triple axels in his LP. Actually I can't think of a single time in which Lambiel has actually went for two triple axels in his LP, though he might have done it when he was a lot younger. Anyway, the triple axel is his worst jump. Lambiel just doesn't go for it because he'll have to do the second 3A in combination and that's pretty much a disaster for him.

Lambiel won the freeskate with three major errors because literally everyone skated worse (believe it or not, but even with 3 pops Lambiel had the highest TES of the night). No Denis Tens that night. Lambiel wasn't held up (which was the OP's original claim) at all. And I'd have to say that 3 pops > 2 falls, 1 pop, 1 step-out.

Actually the one most gifted by PCS by the judges was Takahashi (8th best TES in the SP, 13th best TES in the LP... and 6th overall).

Why do people think that PCS must match TES? It doesn't have to. It SHOULDN'T have to. In the SP, for instance, Takahashi may have had 8th best TES, but he skated his heart out in that program and got a standing ovation. His low TES was because of URs, which were barely perceptible in real time and didn't detract from the overall performance. As for the LP, his TES was low but he sure as heck didn't deserve the 13th best PCS!

It's important to watch the actual performance to see whether PCS was a "gift" instead of just looking at TES.

And yes, I think Ten was definitely gifted in PCS. But the judges had backed themselves into that corner by gifting Chan in PCS as well.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I will meet you halfway. Patrick's skating does have a quality that never abandons him even when things go wrong.

But Patrick himself said (in his interview for Icenetwork) that falling saps your energy. I think that happened here. After the first fall, the first half of the ensuing free skating sequence was not as fluid or energetic as we expect. Finally he got back in synch, only to fall again. The last half of the program petered out considerably. And unfortunately the lack of focus and attack made the music seem increasing dreary as the program wore on. I do not agree that he was able to "put his full emotion into the program." Quite the contrary.



He did get a 9.50 in the free program, though. The same judge gave him component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50.

Patrick's total PCS for his record setting short program was 45.67. His unfactored PCS for the long was 43.50. Don't you see something out of whack here?

Can you explain this:

Ten's SP:

SS range 7.50 - 8.75 average SS=8.07

Ten's LP:

SS range 8.25 - 9.50 average SS=8.54

Will he improve that much in SS in two days?

In fact, every single category in Ten's PCS "has improved" in two days. TR from SP 7.89 to LP 8.43. PE from SP 8.39 to LP 8.89. CH from SP 8.11 to LP 8.86. IN from SP 8.29 to LP 8.86.

On the contrary, Chan's every single category in PCS was lowered from SP to LP (rightfully, of course). However, if you see the rising in PCS from SP to LP is normal, as in Ten's case, Chan's abnormal lowered PCS from SP to LP has already factored in the mistakes he had in his LP.


Still not deserving 9.5 for PE for that many visible errors (OK, so it WASN'T a 9.75, but STILL, that mark is totally off the wall for the EXECUTION of that program).

There was only one judge who gave Chan 9.5 for SS. Why don't you say that there was another judge who gave him 8.75 for SS?

Will Ten's 9.50 and 9.00 in SS in LP be totally off the wall too?


ETA:

There was NO 9.5 in PE in Chan's LP. The highest he got in PE was from only one judge. That judge gave him 9.25. The lowest PE he got was from one judge who gave him 8.00.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Why do people think that PCS must match TES? It doesn't have to. It SHOULDN'T have to. In the SP, for instance, Takahashi may have had 8th best TES, but he skated his heart out in that program and got a standing ovation. His low TES was because of URs, which were barely perceptible in real time and didn't detract from the overall performance. As for the LP, his TES was low but he sure as heck didn't deserve the 13th best PCS!

It's important to watch the actual performance to see whether PCS was a "gift" instead of just looking at TES. And yes, I think Ten was definitely gifted in PCS. But the judges had backed themselves into that corner by gifting Chan in PCS as well.

I think it's not so much a matter of how inflated Chan or Ten's PCS was but how they are in reference to each other (since both won by a considerable margin, that PCS inflation is negligible).

I also agree with you that TES shouldn't equal PCS, but it's hard to justify a skater being technically inferior over both segments and still placing so high. Aaron, for example, while nowhere nearly as good a skater as Daisuke had a vastly cleaner (and more demanding) competition technically, the only real error being him doubling the second 4S in the LP.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Actually the one most gifted by PCS by the judges was Takahashi (8th best TES in the SP, 13th best TES in the LP... and 6th overall).

I would have given Takahashi a slightly more PCS, were I a judge. ;) While his TES is very low due to one combo, 4T<, and 3A<+SEQ with a fall where he actually got mere 1.18 after fall deduction, in perfromance-wise I enjoyed his LP here as much as I did at his GPF LP. I much prefer these two performances than his Nats' LP where he skated best this season. Going into LP, a number of reports and news articles said Dai was struggling with his jumps thus I was prepared for the worst. Besides, considering his verious misfortunes and not-so-welcome attitide from his own fed throughout the season, plus he is a sort of skater with many ups and downs in his whole career, his fans kind of knew, before the Worlds, 2012-13 season was not his year. But I was pleasantly surprised he skated big ger and much smoother here. Upon double-footing the opening quad and popping the second one into triple, he himself already knew he was not going to win but he (looked to me) refused to let his performance away. I very much liked Dai never stop performing even after the fall. That's Daisuke, the skater I have been enjoying, loving and rooting for. :) This is of course my personal opinion. I perhaps am biased. I am no judge no professional unfortunately, just a casual fan who have been watching this sport for the last few decades. So ignore me, pls, cause am only saying it in my sleep. zzzzz ;)
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Math, I have rewatched Chan and Ten's LPs. Nothing you can nitpick in Chan's skating other than those four mistakes. I feel that Chan deserved gold. This was harder to dispute for Chan detractors than in 2012 Worlds where Chan won LP over Takahashi. I felt that Takahashi probably should have won LP in 2012 but then Chan deserved 2012 world gold. He was brilliant this time except those falls and mistakes! His entire skating was as if he didn't mind that there was a big element coming up. He didn't slow down and he didn't seem to have prepared for the jumps. Though I'm sure he did prepare but it looked completely blend in with all other movements and made them all look like a choreography movement. That was the excellence of Chan's skating. Most top skaters cannot do that. My opinion is besides Chan, only Hanyu and Abbott could do that in the top of this current crop, not Takahashi, not Kozuka.

On the other hand, Ten skated cautiously throughout his LP except after the last jump which was 2A. He was preparing for the jumps long before the jumps. Slow, concentrated, mainly doing what he was given, not much emotion. Only after that last jump, he started to let loose and put the whole emotion into his movements. But it was too late, it was the end of the performance. Yes, he skated clean eventhough not perfect. Was that a top knotch skating? NO! Clean but no! Don't get me wrong. I like Denis Ten very much. He is the cutiest cutie pie. I'm very very happy that he got silver medal. But that skating of Ten's in general cannot challenge Patrick Chan in general. However since Patrick Chan faltered that night, Ten has won the LP. So Ten got what he deserved. The ones who could challenge the championship position were a few spots down the line.

Another thing is that you have mentioned that one judge has given Chan component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50?:confused: I think what you were trying to say was that one judge has given Chan component scores of 9.50, 9.75, 9.25, 9.50, and 9.50. But I think highly likely that same judge has given Ten component scores of 9.50, 9.25, 9.50, 9.50, and 9.50.

Assume that those two sets of scores came from the same judge:

SS - Chan and Ten were the same?!:rolleye: Give me a break!
TR - Chan was 0.50 higher than Ten - acceptable.
PE - Ten was 0.25 Higher than Chan. Well, they were in the right order.
CH - Chan and Ten were the same - acceptable.
IN - Chan and Ten were the same - well, if the judge say so...
 

Leonardo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
^^ LOL at the desperate attempts to prove that Patrick deserved the title. So, Chan was brilliant, his falls and mistakes didn't affect the program, his excellence in falling was just beautiful and justified his high pcs, 2 points higher the any other guy, and 4 points higher than Takhashi who is a brilliant performer and artist (who also made mistakes). Ten on the other hand, was the slow, concentrated one and didn't really perform?
Seriously, keep your delusions, there's nothing one can do about it.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
^^ LOL at the desperate attempts to prove that Patrick deserved the title. So, Chan was brilliant, his falls and mistakes didn't affect the program, his excellence in falling was just beautiful and justified his high pcs, 2 points higher the any other guy, and 4 points higher than Takhashi who is a brilliant performer and artist (who also made mistakes). Ten on the other hand, was the slow, concentrated one and didn't really perform?
Seriously, keep your delusions, there's nothing one can do about it.

Right. The artist who has to delute his program for the big jumps. Seriously, Takahashi jumps out of his performance often enough if you are not blindly worshiping him. Now who is delusional and desperate? I'm perfectly content.:popcorn:
 

VIETgrlTerifa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Maybe Patrick should do the same as well. He consistently has trouble performing his planned elements. However, Jeremy Abbott gets heavily criticized for the same thing. Of course, Abbott can't land beautiful quads the way Chan can now.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It's working out as it was designed though - people point to the numbers and say, see, this guy SHOULD have won, the numbers say so! ;)

I know! It's iike:

Fan #1: "Hey, what's going on, I though the other guy skated better."

Fan #2: "No, see, it's right here in the protocols. The first place guy got a 1.4 GOE points for his triple flip and 8.75 for choreography.

Fan #1: "Well, I still thought the other guy was better."

Fan #2 (patiently): No, the second place guy only got 0.14 GOE on his triple loop and 8.25 for P&E. Now do you understand?"

The two fans go their separate ways. Fan #1 thinks fan #2 is being deliberately obtuse in pretending not to understand what "I think the other guy skated better" means.

The second fan thinks it is the first fan who is being stubborn, pretending not to know what 2+2 - 4 means. ;)

(By the way, the exchange between Bluebonnet and me on this thread is not of this type. I thought Chan skated eh?, Bluebonnet thought he skated great, apart from the jump errors. That's cool. No harm, no foul.)
 

Leonardo

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Right. The artist who has to delute his program for the big jumps. Seriously, Takahashi jumps out of his performance often enough if you are not blindly worshiping him. Now who is delusional and desperate? I'm perfectly content.:popcorn:

Chan looked completely off in his performance after so many mistakes, but yet he got better pcs than anyone else, including Takahashi. Well, I wonder if the many skaters who made their opinion loud about this, figure skating experts, most of the international fans and commentators are all delusional and desperate like me as well. But you are right, a real Pchan fan acts just like him, so we expect you to defend his titles to the impossible level and say things like "his competitors also made mistakes, nobody understands the cop and blablabla"
So, as I said before, keep the ilusions, Patrick was the real winner, and it was a really incredible and beautiful victory, as most of the times he wins! No cheating at all!
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Chan was given the title because
(1) it was in Canada
(2) some judges wanted to activate the jinx to miss the Olympic gold medal
(3) they didn't want to make Denis Ten the Olympic favorite (even for a medal)
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
It's working out as it was designed though - people point to the numbers and say, see, this guy SHOULD have won, the numbers say so! ;)

Isn't that the objectivity?!:p

I actually set my heart before the worlds and rooted for Chan to fall down the podium. I'd be very very happy if he did. Why? Because I want him to find a real coach. Sorry, Chan fans.:p But the numbers which I largely agree with said he won. Oh, well, what can you say? He won. Damn!
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
They're just subjective numbers for GOE and PCS like 5.1 or 5.5 or 6.0 was a number in the old system. :yes:

No one can avoid subjectivity completely in anything involved with performing art. The scores are not all based on GOE and PCS. BV is pretty objective.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
No one can avoid subjectivity completely in anything involved with performing art. The scores are not all based on GOE and PCS. BV is pretty objective.

I think that highlights yet another problem with the IJS.

Patrick got full base value of 11.00 for his unsuccessful attempt at a 3F+1Lo+3S combination. He lost only 1.30 in GOE for a whopping 9.70 points net. (I know, I know -- he got in the rotations).

He got base value of 6.60 for an under-rotated triple Axel with a fall, and he got a base value of 6.00 for a fall on a triple Lutz. Even after UR penalty, maximum negative GOE, and fall penalties, he still netted 5.50 points for the two. (I know, I know -- he rotated the Lutz before falling and he got at least most of the way around on the Axel before falling.)

That is a lot of points for failed tricks that did nothing but mar the program. (But according the IJS, they didn't mar the program much -- just a couple of points in overall PCS.)

(Again, I am not faulting Patrick -- he didn't fall on purpose, and he didn't design the CoP.)
 
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