Bad layback = good jumps?

dorispulaski · Mar 26, 2013

Jackie said:
I'm no scientist, but it seems possible that having a very strong core could make it more difficult to have a flexible back. These two muscle groups work in opposition to each other, no? Again, this is speculation as I'm not an expert on anatomy or anything, but it makes sense in my head.

....It's interesting that this would be my first post after years of lurking, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

Welcome to posting Jackie! Post long & often in the future!

pangtongfan · Mar 26, 2013

Irina Slutskaya had an excellent layback and also great jumps. Denise Biellmann would be another. Kristi Yamaguchi would be another (her jumps were small but still great).

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 26, 2013

mskater93 said:
No one works on this because it is SUCH a subjective feature that I've seen it called exactly ONCE in all the competitions I've seen at all levels. How much is a "clear increase of speed"

Yeah, I think you could argue that e.g. Lipnitskaia has it in her Biellmann and I-spin, but it's a ridiculous feature that usually isn't even possible unless you pull in, usually resulting in a different position.

I agree that a Biellmann should only be executed when it suits the program otherwise it can look really awkward. It should be the showstopper like Radionova/Czisny/Lipnitskaia/Martinez.

mskater93 · Mar 27, 2013

But it doesn't clearly increase in speed *during* that position, only when attaining it (Czsiny, too, clearly increases speed getting from her haircutter to her Bielman), which is the intent of the feature. The only skater I've seen at the elite level in the past who might, possibly, get it called is Kwan in her layback where she drops her free foot close to the spinning leg and pulls her arms down behind her back.

prettykeys · Mar 28, 2013

mskater93 said:
No, you can have a flexible back and a strong core at the same time, and actually having a strong core and a flexible back can help avoid a lot of injuries. This website has some really good articles on off ice training: http://www.sk8strong.com/articles.html

There is a much easier explanation of strong core + flexible back being possible: gymnasts.

ivy · Mar 28, 2013

But flexible backs and open hips aren't the same. Gymnasts don't seem to have to worry about turn out so much.

gkelly · Mar 28, 2013

Skaters don't need to worry about open hips. There aren't any required moves that require open hips per se, although it does make mohawks easier.

But spread eagles and Ina Bauers are not required moves. Turned-out free legs in spins and spirals are not required -- they may make the move look nice and be rewarded on that basis, but it's perfectly acceptable to choose a different free leg position that doesn't emphasize turnout and to make it look nice in other ways.

rsk8d · Mar 28, 2013

Hi, I am the physical therapist who manages Sk8Strong. I feel the need to weigh in on this topic! You CAN have both a flexible back and a strong core. Back flexibility has more to do with the mobility in the joints and the joint capsule of each vertebrae in the spine, not flexibility of the muscles. When you bend backwards each vertebrae extends back on the one below it. If I person does not have good back extension, it should not not be forced, as you are just 'jamming' the joints into extension. This can lead to inflammation in the facet joints, and lower back pain. In regards to hip position, you are genetically born with your hip socket in a certain position/angle. The amount of turn-out is also determined by the position and mobility of the joint capsule, not necessarily the muscles. You can only improve hip turn-out so much with flexibility, as you don't want to over-stretch the capsule.

Every skater needs a strong core to be able to be a good skater. Those with hypermobility in their back need even more core strength to stabilize vertebrae that may move too much. The same applies to a person with too much hip mobility. An extra mobile hip capsule in conjunction with hip weakness (which is very common) can lead to hip, knee, or back problems if not addressed. All skaters need a strong glute medius.

Thanks to the poster who sent people to our articles page! Much appreciated! Follow Sk8Strong on twitter for LOTS of good info.

mskater93 · Mar 28, 2013

That would be me.

I read your off ice posts on skatingforums and have directed my personal trainer to your site as I am the first skater (adult or otherwise) she's worked with. I figured sending people to a skating-based training page would be easier than just "arguing" with the poster who "guessed" a strong core and flexible back were in opposition to one another and saying "nuh uh, is not".

Olympia · Mar 28, 2013

rsk8d said:
Hi, I am the physical therapist who manages Sk8Strong. I feel the need to weigh in on this topic! You CAN have both a flexible back and a strong core. Back flexibility has more to do with the mobility in the joints and the joint capsule of each vertebrae in the spine, not flexibility of the muscles. When you bend backwards each vertebrae extends back on the one below it. If I person does not have good back extension, it should not not be forced, as you are just 'jamming' the joints into extension. This can lead to inflammation in the facet joints, and lower back pain. In regards to hip position, you are genetically born with your hip socket in a certain position/angle. The amount of turn-out is also determined by the position and mobility of the joint capsule, not necessarily the muscles. You can only improve hip turn-out so much with flexibility, as you don't want to over-stretch the capsule.

Every skater needs a strong core to be able to be a good skater. Those with hypermobility in their back need even more core strength to stabilize vertebrae that may move too much. The same applies to a person with too much hip mobility. An extra mobile hip capsule in conjunction with hip weakness (which is very common) can lead to hip, knee, or back problems if not addressed. All skaters need a strong glute medius.

Thanks to the poster who sent people to our articles page! Much appreciated! Follow Sk8Strong on twitter for LOTS of good info.

This is one reason I love this site. How else would we learn stuff like this? All of which is entirely new to me. Thanks!

kittyhawk · Mar 30, 2013

rsk8d said:
Every skater needs a strong core to be able to be a good skater. Those with hypermobility in their back need even more core strength to stabilize vertebrae that may move too much. The same applies to a person with too much hip mobility. An extra mobile hip capsule in conjunction with hip weakness (which is very common) can lead to hip, knee, or back problems if not addressed. All skaters need a strong glute medius.

I haven't checked out your site but I will. But may I ask, in relation to the topic, how much ballet should a skater do? Is there such a thing as too much ballet?

rsk8d · Mar 30, 2013

Ballet is definitely not my forte, but a competitive skater can always benefit from ballet. It is great for posture and balance, as well as core strength. It should definitely be done in conjunction with the proper strength training program.

kittyhawk · Mar 30, 2013

Thanks for the reply, rsk8d!

jaylee · Mar 30, 2013

mskater93 said:
But it doesn't clearly increase in speed *during* that position, only when attaining it (Czsiny, too, clearly increases speed getting from her haircutter to her Bielman), which is the intent of the feature. The only skater I've seen at the elite level in the past who might, possibly, get it called is Kwan in her layback where she drops her free foot close to the spinning leg and pulls her arms down behind her back.

During the 2006-2007 season, it was very tough for the top skaters to get a level 4 layback spin because, correct me if I'm wrong, they needed to get the acceleration feature.

Very few skaters got level 4 that season and it's even tougher to find videos of them. But there are some examples and you can see the skaters accelerating during their layback spin:

Binshu Xu, 2006 Skate Canada FS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mmxWuOxrz1w#t=148s

Yu-Na Kim
2006 Skate Canada FS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9uptM1q0qWA#t=89s

Yu-Na Kim
2007 Worlds SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wezmyg9n6I8#t=135s

Yukari Nakano and Elene Gedevanishvili also got level 4 layback spins that season, but can't find their videos.

Of course, there could have been skaters who were given the feature for acceleration but missed fulfilling the requirements for another feature and so only got level 3; I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case with Alissa Czisny as I'm surprised she never earned a level 4 layback spin that season (that I can find).

Bad layback = good jumps?

dorispulaski

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pangtongfan

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CanadianSkaterGuy

mskater93

prettykeys

ivy

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Olympia

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rsk8d

kittyhawk

jaylee

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